Hamas gains legitimacy in Palestine election win : Melbourne Indymedia

Hamas has gained support in the territories not only for its defiant attitude towards the Israeli State but for the human services and security provided in regions of the occupied territories currently under the influence of the movement.
However, opproprium for desperate military tactics ascribed to its members, including suicide bombings on civilian targets, provides Western leaders with a large stick with which to beat Hamas via global media networks that on this issue largely sympathetic.
US Secretary of State Condolleeezza Rice has previously promised her country will not communicate with Hamas in the event of electoral success. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has been similarly dismissive of the political movement, and any prospect of engagement in the event of a Hamas victory. Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Perez has been more circumspect. In recent days he has declared Israel would be prepared to parley with the Palestinian Government, even if controlled by Hamas, provided all Hamas members lay down all weapons and make a pledge, of sorts, of non-violence. Perhaps the Hamas Government of the Palestinian occupied territories will agree, assuming the Israeli State and military, in good faith, accepts the same terms.
In a democratic election in which it is confirmed at least three quarters of registered voters participated, Hamas has undoubtedly gained international as well as local legitimacy. The Palestinian people have expressed their confidence in a party unafraid of the cold shoulder of the West and committed to fighting corruption, poverty and all other obstacles to the present and future dignity of the Palestinian people.

"In a democratic election in which it is confirmed at least three quarters of registered voters participated, Hamas has undoubtedly gained international as well as local legitimacy."

The rehabilitation of anhilationist anti-Semitism is one of the chief aims of the political Left today, disguised thinly as 'anti-Zionism'

It's what the Left wants;

"Hundreds of women at a Hamas election rally in the West Bank city of Ramallah cheered when they heard about the attack."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/palestinian-suicide-bomber-wounds-30/2006/01/20/1137553747432.html

"Whenever Uday speaks, Galloway looks at him attentively and hangs on his every word. "

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/cat_iraq.html

I appreciate Spinifex that you appear to believe there is no distinction between being a
critic of the Israeli state, military, and Government
and a general all in 'anti-semitic' character opposed to Jewry everywhere.

Doesn't matter really. Most people are entirely comfortable with the distinction, including, I would argue, many humanitarian Jews.

Not all jews support the expansion of Israel and the oppression of Palestinians. Therefore, those of us who oppose Israel's expansion feel we have many Jewish allies. Therefore the claim of anti-semitism, which would require the rejection of all Jewry (and by most definitions most other middle-eastern peoples also), does not apply.

Unless those non-zionist jews are anti-semitic as well?

I too am yawning, as the same tired out old crap is recycled.

appreciate Spinifex that you appear to believe there is no distinction between being a critic of the Israeli state, military, and Government and a general all in 'anti-semitic' character opposed to Jewry everywhere.

It is a giant lie to claim that Jews brand all critics of Israel as anti-Semitic. They do not, and the only people who seem to feel this way, more often than not are trying to disarm accusations of real anti-Semitism. This of course suits certain anti-Semites.

Having said that hoeever, plenty of "Anti-Zionism" earns its racist character from denying the Jewish people what it happily grants to other collectives (e.g. French, Palestinians etc,) namely, the right to nationhood and self-determination.

Therefore the claim of anti-semitism, which would require the rejection of all Jewry (and by most definitions most other middle-eastern peoples also

Again, more uniformed rubbish that genuinely tries to claim the term "anti-Semitism" doesn't apply exclusively to Jews.

David, the rise of Hamas will force those previously posing as "anti-Zionist" to further compromise their stance and so pretend that Hamas itself is not really anti-Semitic and indeed is merely anti-Zionist.

Oh, golly. Look...

"Hamas, however, is not a terrorist organisation but a mass-based, Palestinian resistance movement established in 1987 at the start of the first intifada, with the aim of liberating Palestine from the Israeli occupation. According to Hamas, this does not mean the expulsion of Jews from historical Palestine, but the realisation of the right of return for the Palestinians expelled from the towns and villages they lived in before 1948, in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194."

- Green Left Weekly

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/577/577p15.htm

David, what chance the Jews being allowed to live at peace in "historical Palestine" once Hamas are in control of Israel's destiny?

No, really? What chance?

Let alone bieng allowed to live anywhere else in the Middle East.

They won't be expelled.

They'll be hunted down like dogs, every last one of them.

How fucking stupid are you?

uh... rhetorical question, right?

anyway, it's understandable that the Palestinians elect, at present, a Government unafraid to defend them, unafraid to oppose their oppressors, capable of striking back at them, and with the interests, dignity and honour of the Palestinian people genuinely at heart.
The State of Israel first and foremost must behave honourably and end the humiliation of the Palestinian people in all the forms that this humiliation takes, if it ever wishes to have credibility in these matters, or if it expects to be treated as a credible, honourable entity.

I don't support the killing of innocent people under any circumstances, by the Israeli Government or suicide bombers. I don't believe the Palestinians would continue to support such activity if they were not desperately aggrieved by decades of oppression. Given the circumstances they currently suffer, and my own comfort and privilege, I'm not well placed to judge them on the actions they take.

Attacks on the occupying forces, however, are a different matter. The palestinians are entitled to respond to defend themselves against control and manipulation, and entitled to attempt to throw off their oppressors.

Hamas is the Government that appears to represent the sentiment of Palestinians now, not that of a future free people. Either Hamas or the Government would naturally change both objectives and mood in time with the lifting of oppressive conditions. In this sense, the One-state-solution Government of the future of which you speak would not be the highly militant, fiercely proud, Hamas that exists for and represents the Palestinian people today.

As to the question of the future of Israel, I'd say it's all on the table, and up in the air. Israel has conducted itself too poorly - as a State - to have an inviolable right to continuance in its current form. World opinion has an influence in these matters, and not just the opinion of the United States.
A humble, non-aggressive Israel would be sustained by the weight of opinion in the world. But the world will not sustain a state that oppresses its neighbours in the name of its own security.

The constant claim is that Israel DESERVES security at the expense of the Palestinian people. This is a justification that has survived decades. But it is not true. Nobody has a divine right to a secure, safe life. The question of whether we choose to look to ourselves first or, more generally, to humanity, is ours to make. And it is possible to judge an individual or a State given this choice - capable of achieving security for itself - on how they respond.
Of course if the Israelites are denied their exlusive homeland then the Zionist suicide bombings that preceded the formation of Israel may well resume - full circle.

But Spinifex, you're hysterical. Perhaps you fear a particular outcome from this turn of events, perhaps being concerned for the future of a Jewish homeland. That's reasonable. I see it from a different perspective - justice for the Palestinian people.

Isn't this the real point of division? Rather than that either one of us is fucking stupid?

david: "...anyway, it's understandable that the Palestinians elect, at present, a Government unafraid to defend them, unafraid to oppose their oppressors, capable of striking back at them, and with the interests, dignity and honour of the Palestinian people genuinely at heart...."

David, I told you that you'd start slurping at the trough almost immediately, didn't I?

And there you go. This is Hamas you're heaping parise on.

Hamas.

Anyway, here's why local the local Jew-baiters will start pretending Hamas isn't a terrorist group after all;

"Mideast peace accords of the 1990s stipulated that no terror group could participate in Palestinian elections, but Israel was unable to drum up international support for barring the group (Hamas) from contesting the democratic vote."

- NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Israel-Palestinian-Elections.html?_r=1

Now, the Jew-baiters have to pretend Hamas is reality a charity or social work body or heroic freedom fighters.

hehe
you're incurable spinifex
Hamas is both and neither...

You're using extremist, violent language of derision and scorn
I'm not.

I mean who's baiting who? The silly term 'Jew-baiter' applied so broadly appears to imply that ANY criticism of Israel is an attempt born out of sheer loathing to bring down the Jewish race.

As I've said, I'm distinguishing clearly between the State of Israel, and the Jewish people.

The premiss I begin with is that an oppressed people should be treated better, and the oppressors must be taught that their crimes are inexcusable.

There's no need to keep shouting at people, Spinifex, who do not share your point of view - which appears to be one that considers one group of people Chosen or at least Deserving, but for another group sub-human treatment is acceptable, and absolute condemnation without reservation appropriate.

However shrilly Zionists complain about a view of Hamas that is not simple condemnation, they won't prevent others holding such a view. And the attempt to squash and defeat all alternative viewpoints is both telling and self-defeating.
From my perspective such complaints and repetitive dogma have the reverse effect, clearly distinguishing hysterical loaded rhetoric of the Israeli Government, military, and supporters from the powerful language of justice and reason spoken by Hannan Ashrawi and other erudite representatives of the Palestinians, including some of those of the political wing of Hamas, who seek to liberate their people from oppression.

Demonstrable, daily, long-term injustice and oppression, ultimately, are more powerful attractors of global support for a political movement than the demonisation of a democratic, representative political party can ever be.

'Anyone educated enough to have heard the word "antisemitism" claims as a matter of course to be free of it.' - George Orwell, 1945

Interesting how a pro-'Palestinian' stance frequently involves 'macho' concepts like 'dignity', 'honour' and 'humiliation'.

'She taunted me, Your Honour, I had to stop her....'

honour and dignity to me mean pride in self-identity, self-respect, and observance of dharma, or right conduct.
...not necessarily masculine traits. Grace and honour are closely related.
I like to think this is a very different concept - at least as intended - to the macho sentiments these words suggest to you.
fair point tho - the romantic appeal of the warrior also involved here does have the connotations you mention

If you wanna get Spinifex views phone Manly Council(NSW) and ask to speak to Chris Parsons(Spinifex) Public Relations Officer belive or not..

Next time before allowing Muslims a chance to vote make sure there is control over what they are voting for; democracies in the ME only work if the Muslims are forced to choose between two pro-western governments, as Iraq & Afghanistan quite clearly shows.

Why else would the west encourage democracies?

Now look whats happened the people voted for the wrong ones, so GWB will not talk to them and Howard agrees, but then were we ever in any doubt?

Unfortunately after years of oppression and one way negotiations Israel has created only local enemies.

According to all reports Arafat’s leadership was corrupt and supported terrorism, one year later, after his death, the party he founded, is no longer a threat, or so we are told.

The party showed itself to be pliable and willing to be guided by western and Israeli forces into any agreement or none, which is why the Palestinians got shot of them, they wanted representation while enduring occupation.

Hamas will not be corrupted so easily, with a track record of honesty and care for its community Hamas has built the respect of its people rather than handed out Israeli funds to afford majority support through bribes and kick back policies.

That is what the west fear. A palestinian government that can reach the world stage with its side of the story.

Israel now has only one part left to play in a history that has never strayed far away from violence and will continue apparently assisted by the latest event. Inciting more violence to ruin Hamas’s international status may not seem nessasary. However, as Israel has always done for all Palestinian leadership, Israel will continue to step up its campaign of Terror, so there will not be peace or any further bullshit about the closed American road map.

Tracking peace initiatives over the last half century proves that peace cannot be the objective of American/Israeli partnerships.

The Palestinians remain refuges, unable to travel or locally or overseas, develop industries; they live with third world services reliant upon food packages, while under armed guard.

After half a century Palestinians have decide enough is enough sharing the opinion, we played the game but as our best is not good enough, we will stop hiding what we feel because just over the wall Israelis are enjoying a welfare state that will never know shortages..

Israel has maintained a determined position of destroying Palestine with ambitions to occupy all of Palestine with US support and finance.
The talk of Hamas wanting to destroy Israel can only be in response to Israel’s actual behaviour of destroying Palestine since the colony was established.

Terrorism has been the weapon of choice used by both sides, during this long running dispute. The indiscriminate killing of civilians has been only acceptable if done by Israeli armed forces, therefore to blame Hamas for doing exactly the same while defending its nation from colonial rule is not only unfair and totally one sided it is deceitful.

Surely UN peace keepers rather than continued joint American/Israeli aggression against powerless refuges would be step in the right direction.

Once security is established and maintained by a third party, issues of who owns what could be settled in independent courts of Europe. While Israel’s ridiculous demands for territory can be decoded by cooler minds that have no vested interest.

So far Israel has been able to stand over Palestinians from behind closed doors threatening supplies of power and water and food should negotiation not reach agreement.

Peace is something that only an authority without a conflict of interest can achieve.
However for now, it seems clear that America and Israel share an interest in conflict throughou the ME, so nothing will change in the Middle East, until the US and its colony sets aside intimidation and recognises a higher power.

"It is a giant lie to claim that Jews brand all critics of Israel as anti-Semitic. " Yes, a giant lie it is. A giant lie purpotrated by Zionist filth such as Spinifex and Nazihunter. Jews don't brand all critics of Israel as anti-Semitic. Zionist filth such as Spinifex and Nazihunter do.

Nazihunter is a Nazi who suported the Cronulla pogrom. Spinifex is a "small-l liberal" supporter of imperialism, who parrots the "well informed" type of right wing commentators such as Gerard Henderson.

Why did Palestinians vote against a peace process? Because the Oslo peace process involved more Palestinian land being given to fascist settlers and the continual murder by Israel of innocent Palestinians. A unilateral peace.

If the West actually wanted peace they would propose a peace plan that doesn't involve Israel having the right to continue to disposess, oppress and slaughter Palestinians. Such a peace deal would be welcolmed by Palestinians.

Yes yes... We're sure you love Jews but hate Zionists.

We believe you. No really!

At least Hamas are honest about their Jew-hatred.
How does it feel to know you have less honour than someone who would blow their own child up? Does it feel nice?

As for your astonishing claim that I "am a Nazi who suported (sic) the Cronulla pogrom" can you please tell me, what the *fuck* you are taking?

There was no "pogrom" and you are obviously as familiar with that term as you are the term "Nazi". Your comment is unworthy of a response, as you are unworthy of the dole I have little doubt you claim.

As for the Palestinian side of the story, soon to be 'revealed' by Hamas? Well... See the picture. Cute huh?

Nazihunter listen to yourself.
Your desperate attempts to convince the world of an anti-Jewish conspiracy between all of those who humans who are 'pretending' to be all compassionate and pluralist and tolerant
has brought you to a pretty rhetorical pass...
Now you're insisting people commenting here are lying when they say they don't hate all Jews?
As an extremist you seem to feel all those with a moderate or tolerant view -all those who do not choose a side and then threaten to destroy the other, or attribute to them subhuman character or culture - MUST be lying.

Is the only perspective you understand one based on hatred and a sense of justified hostility towards most of the world?

also, you're addressing several different people's comments with your comment.... your straw man, the rabid hater of all Jews, is actually several different sane and humane individuals

"For international consumption, Hamas has engaged an outside media consultant, Ramallah-based Nashat Aqtash, who has been busy massaging foreign journalists with a message that says, in essence: Hamas, Not As Scary As You Think We Are."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1137885338313&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist1016110013469

Spinifex...Chris... o well, then, if they're hiring PR companies and attempting to obtain favourable media coverage

they MUST be evil

Israel and the US would never stoop to manipulating perceptions in order to get their message across

Oh, and which council are you Communications Officer for again, Chris? Good thing you're above spin and media manipulation, or you might be susceptible to accusations of hypocrisy