Where am I? ( politic's wise ) : Melbourne Indymedia

http://www.politopia.com/introduction1.htm

The origins of the terms “left” and “right” can be traced back to the meetings of the French Estates-General in 1789 when the nobility took the place of honor on the King’s right, while the ordinary (and more revolutionary) members sat on his left.

http://www.politopia.com/introduction2.htm

This linear model is still in widespread use today. Broadly speaking, in the US the right-wing is associated with “conservative” political views, and the left-wing is associated with “liberal” political views.

For many well-known political figures, it’s easy to place them on the left/right model.

ETC...

http://www.politopia.com/introduction3.htm

The Government should:

A: Not exist.

As we do not have a king in power the term right or left no longer applies…however on MIM those who disagree with spinney are left-wingers Stalinists Saddam’s men and even Hitler worshipers… Spinney’s is a lonely world, ruled by a few.
In current western politics there is no left, each of the choices allowed to the voting public offer only allegiance to the corporate consumer world and nothing more…voting against the current power will get you another right wing political force jacked into the same power outlet guaranteeing more of the same leadership and representation of corporations not people will always be the guiding force

"This linear model is still in widespread use today."

While the 'linear model' is still in use, its ONLY used by those who hold narow minded (short sighted) ideologies.

"Politics" is now generally placed upon a 'compass model' - thus plotting Economic and Political beliefs, on the one diagram.

As an idea;- (ref: http://www.politicalcompass.org/)
"There's abundant evidence for the need of it. The old one-dimensional categories of 'right' and 'left' , established for the seating arrangement of the French National Assembly of 1789, are overly simplistic for today's complex political landscape. For example, who are the 'conservatives' in today's Russia? Are they the unreconstructed Stalinists, or the reformers who have adopted the right-wing views of conservatives like Margaret Thatcher ?"

"On the standard left-right scale, how do you distinguish leftists like Stalin and Gandhi? It's not sufficient to say that Stalin was simply more left than Gandhi. There are fundamental political differences between them that the old categories on their own can't explain. Similarly, we generally describe social reactionaries as 'right-wingers', yet that leaves left-wing reactionaries like Robert Mugabe and Pol Pot off the hook."

The frontispiece in this book was drawn by cartoonist Robert Minor in 1911 for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Minor was a talented artist and writer who doubled as a Bolshevik revolutionary, got himself arrested in Russia in 1915 for alleged subversion, and was later bank-rolled by prominent Wall Street financiers. Minor's cartoon portrays a bearded, beaming Karl Marx standing in Wall Street with Socialism tucked under his arm and accepting the congratulations of financial luminaries J.P. Morgan, Morgan partner George W. Perkins, a smug John D. Rockefeller, John D. Ryan of National City Bank, and Teddy Roosevelt — prominently identified by his famous teeth — in the background. Wall Street is decorated by Red flags. The cheering crowd and the airborne hats suggest that Karl Marx must have been a fairly popular sort of fellow in the New York financial district.

Was Robert Minor dreaming? On the contrary, we shall see that Minor was on firm ground in depicting an enthusiastic alliance of Wall Street and Marxist socialism. The characters in Minor's cartoon — Karl Marx (symbolizing the future revolutionaries Lenin and Trotsky), J. P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller — and indeed Robert Minor himself, are also prominent characters in this book.
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Me, myself and I: While the 'linear model' is still in use, its ONLY used by those who hold narow minded (short sighted) ideologies.

Well put, MMI. It is also a false dichotomy smokescreen, the effect (and doubtless intention) of which is to conceal the existence of a very small, ultra-wealthy clique who - as is thoroughly documented - have set themselves up to benefit from the numerous battles between numerous different ideologies and memetic forces. In many posts I've made around here, I refer to this clique as the "Global Ruling Elite" - an appropriate label for a clique who are not only masters at the games they play, but who also make (many of) the rules of these games. The agendas and plans of this clique are generally referred to by researchers as the "New World Order" or simply "Globalisation".
Unfortunately, one can rarely discuss this sort of thing without being labelled with the perjorative "Conspiracy theorist" - a symptom of narrow mindedness. This is also unfortunate, as agenda and coincidence analysis is far too important to be left only in the hands of conspiracy theorists. I feel it's long past time that people of honourable intention - whether they consider themselves "left", "right", "conservative" or "progressive" - take a serious look at these issues, as they are not simply academic. The NWO has quite literally killed hundreds of millions in the 20th century alone, and has been remarkably successful at keeping the global population disempowered, imprisoned (literally and metaphorically) and fearful.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that people who subscribe to this or that ideology/viewpoint etc. which the NWO manipulates are necessarily wrong, but while the bulk of people with generally well intentioned viewpoints wrap themselves in their own righteousness and disrespect each other (a pattern I see frequently in politics), they are a manipulator's party trick.

I won't elaborate too much here on the NWO, but instead publish some posts which represent just a fraction of the evidence available which show that various ideologies and political forces be they "left" or "right", are all serving the agendas of the Global Ruling Elite - a clique who make little secret of the fact that enslavement and subjugation of the planet and it's population is one of their goals.

The giant General Electric company - one of the largest transnational corporations on the planet and the 2nd largest military contractor in the US. Interesting to see what else they get up to.

An extract from http://www.ge.com/ukraine/factsheete.htm follows:

GE has been active in Ukraine since the 1930's when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. GE supplied 5 turbines for Ukraine's first Hydropower station in the 1930's and then helped rebuild it following World War II. Later on, GE supplied high pressure steam turbines for steel mills, gas turbines for compressor stations of the pipelines transferring gas from Siberia across Ukraine to the West.
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An extract from http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_03.htm follows:

CHAPTER THREE

General Electric Funds Hitler

Among the early Roosevelt fascist measures was the National Industry Recovery Act (NRA) of June 16, 1933. The origins of this scheme are worth repeating. These ideas were first suggested by Gerard Swope of the General Electric Company ... following this they were adopted by the United States Chamber of Commerce .... (Herbert Hoover, The Memoirs of Herbert Hoover: The Great Depression, 1929-1941, New York:
The Macmillan Company, 1952, p. 420)

The multi-national giant General Electric has an unparalleled role in twentieth-century history. The General Electric Company electrified the Soviet Union in the 1920s and 1930s, and fulfilled for the Soviets Lenin's dictum that "Socialism = electrification."1 The Swope Plan, created by General Electric's one-time president Gerard Swope, became Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, by a process deplored by one-time President Herbert Hoover and described in Wall Street and FDR.2 There was a long-lasting, intimate relationship between Swope and Young of General Electric Company and the Roosevelt family, as there was between General Electric and the Soviet Union. In 1936 Senator James A. Reed of Missouri, an early Roosevelt supporter, became aware of Roosevelt's betrayal of liberal ideas and attacked the Roosevelt New Deal program as a "tyrannical" measure "leading to despotism, [and] sought by its sponsors under the communistic cry of 'Social Justice.'" Senator Reed further charged on the floor of the Senate that Franklin D. Roosevelt was a "hired man for the economic royalists" in Wall Street and that the Roosevelt family "is one of the largest stockholders in the General Electric Company."3

As we probe into behind-the-scenes German interwar history and the story of Hitler and Naziism, we find both Owen D. Young and Gerard Swope of General Electric tied to the rise of Hitlerism and the suppression of German democracy. That General Electric directors are to be found in each of these three distinct historical categories — i.e., the development of the Soviet Union, the creation of Roosevelt's New Deal, and the rise of Hitlerism — suggests how elements of Big Business are keenly interested in the socialization of the world, for their own purposes and objectives, rather than the maintenance of the impartial market place in a free society.4 General Electric profited handsomely from Bolshevism, from Roosevelt's New Deal socialism, and, as we shall see below, from national socialism in Hitler's Germany.
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Nothing to see here, move along please............

While Henry Ford's support of Nazism is no secret these days ( http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_06.htm ), the Ford Motor Company's operations in the Soviet Union are not so well known. An extract from http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/best_enemy/chapter_02.htm follows:

American Trucks in Korea and Vietnam —
For the Other Side

If we do not develop our automobile industry, we are threatened with the heaviest losses, if not defeats, in a future war. Pravda, July 20, 1927

At the end of World War II the U.S. government appointed an interagency committee to consider the future of the German automobile industry and its war- making potential. This committee concluded that any motor vehicle industry in any country is an important factor in that country's war potential.

More than half U.S. tanks, almost all armored and half-track vehicles and one-third of guns over 33 millimeter were manufactured in U.S. civilian motor vehicle plants.

Consequently, the committee unanimously recommended:

1. Any vehicle industry is a major force for war.

2. German automotive manufacturing should be prohibited because it was a war industry.

3. Numerous military products can be made by the automobile industry, including aerial torpedoes, aircraft cannon, aircraft instruments, aircraft engines, aircraft engines parts, aircraft ignition testers, aircraft machine guns, aircraft propeller subassemblies, aircraft propellers, aircraft servicing and testing equipment, aircraft struts, airframes, and so on. A total of 300 items of military equipment was listed.
..............................................

.............................Almost all — possibly 95 percent — of Soviet military vehicles are produced in very large plants designed by American engineers in the 1930s through the 1970s.

The Soviet Military Truck Industry

Soviet civilian and military trucks are produced in the same plants and have extensive interchangeability of parts and components. For example, the ZIL-131 was the main 31/2-ton 6x6 Soviet military truck used in Vietnam and Afghanistan and is produced also in a civilian 4 x 2 version as the ZIL-130. Over 60 percent of the parts in the ZIL-131 military truck are common to the ZIL-130 civilian truck.

All Soviet truck technology and a large part of Soviet truck-manufacturing equipment has come from the West, mainly from the United States. While some elementary transfers-lines and individual machines for vehicle production are made in the Soviet Union, these are copies of Western machines and always obsolete in design.

Many major American companies have been prominent in building up the Soviet truck industry. The Ford Motor Company, the A. J. Brandt Company, the Austin Company, General Electric, Swindell-Dressier, and others supplied the technical assistance, design work, and equipment of the original giant plants.

This Soviet military-civilian truck industry originally comprised two main groups of plants, plus five newer giant plants. The first group used models, technical assistance, and parts and components from the Ford-built Gorki automobile plant (GAZ is the model designation). The second group of production plants used models, parts, and components from the A. J. Brandt-rebuilt ZIL plant in Moscow (Zavod imeni Likhachev, formerly the AMO and later the Stalin plant). Consequently this plant was called the BBH-ZIL plant after the three companies involved in its reconstruction and expansion in the 1930s: A. J. Brandt, Budd, and Hamilton Foundry.

There is a fundamental difference between the Ford and Brandt companies. Brandt had only one contract in the USSR, to rebuild the old AMO plant in 1929. AMO in 1930 had a production of 30,000 trucks per year, compared to the Gorki plant, designed from scratch by Ford for an output of 140,000 vehicles per year. Ford is still interested in Russian business. Brandt is not interested and has not been since 1930.

The Ford-Gorki group of assembly plants includes the plants at Ulyanovsk (model designation UAZ), Odessa (model designation OAZ), and Pavlovo (model designation PAZ). The BBH-ZIL group includes the truck plants at Mytischiy (MMZ model designation), Miass (or URAL Zis), Dnepropetrovsk (model designation DAZ), Kutaisi (KAZ model), and Lvov (LAZ model). Besides these main groups there are also five independent plants. The Minsk truck plant (MAZ) was built with German assistance. The Hercules-Yaroslavl truck plant (YaAz) was built by the Hercules Motor Company. The MZMA plant in Moscow, which manufactures small automobiles, was also built by Ford Motor Company.

In the late 1960s came the so-called Fiat-Togliatti auto plant. Three-quarters of this equipment came from the United States. Then in 1972 the U.S. government issued $1 billion in licenses to export equipment and technical assistance for the Kama truck plant. Planned as the largest truck plant in the world, it covers 36 square miles and produces more heavy trucks, including military trucks, than the output of all U.S. heavy truck manufacturers combined. (Togliatti and Kama are described in Chapter Three below.)

This comprises the complete Soviet vehicle manufacturing industry — all built with Western, primarily American, technical assistance and technology. Military models are produced in these plants utilizing the same components as the civilian models. The two main vehicle production centers, Gorki and ZIL, manufacture more than two-thirds of all Soviet civilian vehicles (excluding the new Togliatti and Kama plants) and almost all current military vehicles.
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With the $750 you could buy a top notch power assisted bike...

http://www.gm.com/automotive/vehicle_shopping/militaryoverseasprog/?campaign=ACTIVE_MILITARY_GM_PROMO_1
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This bonus offer is in addition to many other current offers available from GM. For more information on attractive GMAC financing, call 1-888-262-2393, our dedicated call center for military personnel.

It’s our small way of saying thanks to you for always being there.

David Rockefeller with Soviet Finance Minister V. F Garbuzov

An extract from http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/best_enemy/chapter_03.htm :

The Deaf Mutes Supply Trucks for Afghan Genocide

"The (American) businessmen who built the Soviet Kama River truck plant should be shot as traitors." — Avraham Shifrin, former Soviet Defense Ministry official

Although the military output from Gorki and ZIL was well known to U.S. intelligence and therefore to successive administrations, American aid for construction of even large military truck plants was approved in the 1960s and 1970s.

Under intense political pressure from the deaf mute blindmen, U.S. politicians, particularly in the Johnson and Nixon administrations under the prodding of Henry Kissinger (a long-time employee of the Rockefeller family), allowed the Togliatti (Volgograd) and Kama River plants to be built.

The Volgograd automobile plant, built between 1968 and 1971, has a capacity of 600,000 vehicles per year, three times more than the Ford-built Gorki plant, which up to 1968 had been the largest auto plant in the USSR.

Although Volgograd is described in Western literature as the "Togliatti plant" or the "Fiat-Soviet auto plant," and does indeed produce a version of the Fiat- 124 sedan, the core of the technology is American. Three-quarters of the equipment, including the key transfer lines and automatics, came from the United States. It is truly extraordinary that a plant with known military potential could have been equipped from the United States in the middle of the Vietnamese War, a war in which the North Vietnamese received 80 percent of their supplies from the Soviet Union.

The construction contract, awarded to Fiat S.p.A., a firm closely associated with Chase Manhattan Bank, included an engineering fee of $65 million. The agreement between Fiat and the Soviet government included:

The supply of drawing and engineering data for two automobile models, substantially similar to the Fiat types of current production, but with the modifications required by the particular climatic and road conditions of the country; the supply of a complete manufacturing plant project, with the definition of the machine tools, toolings, control apparatus, etc.; the supply of the necessary know-how, personnel training, plant start-up assistance, and other similar services.

Zbigniew Brzezinski - "AntiCommunist", and protegé of David Rockefeller......Huh?

A consistent pattern which can be seen when studying NWO generated wars is the pattern of building up the "enemy" and then tearing it down. One of the results of this pattern is always a further centralisation of power. This would seem to best explain why the protegé of one of the West's biggest supporters of "Communism" would come to play such a prominent role in the destruction of the Big Red Bogeyman.

An article which explores Brezezenski's use of Islamic Fundamentalism to bring down the Soviet Union is available at http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/brz.htm

Anyway, that's enough factoids for tonight.

I'll be back another time to expand and to clarify.

Compasses and Pizza are 14 year old pol sci class material. So Changeling... You're carpet bombing of this thread with the crimes of General Motors and the Soviet counter-revolution is interesting. But what point are you trying to make?

I don't actually see any improvement or solutions here (or anywhere - maybe it's just that I'm a little burnt out...). A few years ago I went to a P---- school and they said similar stuff to what you are going on about here. I did not dissagree with any of it but there was something very unsettling in the tone. Maybe it was that they don't say it in public or maybe just that they seemed just a little too cynical. I dunno.

Now that I think about it I'm not even sure what the question is...

I hope 'Changeling' isn't in the bottom left hand corner of both these phoney baloney tests.

People might think we're all nutty conspiracists with a fetish for Balkan dictators.

Speaking for myself, I would like to be in a place that is safe for possums.

To be quite frank, if it were a place entirely free of human beings, I would not be too fussed.

Gloria O'P.

You and me both miss P...but as reality shatters our happy ever after...did you read The Plan?

Thanks for the feedback, jb.

"How many families rule the world again?"

Lol! I was wondering when someone was going to ask something like that. Short answer is - I don't know. According to some conspiracy theorists it's 13, however I don't think it really matters (except from an esoteric perspective, but I'll leave that one for another day).

"Compasses and Pizza are 14 year old pol sci class material."

???Please Explain!

"So Changeling... You're carpet bombing of this thread with the crimes of General Motors......."

Actually, the GM post wasn't me though General Motors are very much a part of the Globalist-Manipulator (GM :) networks I'm talking about.
And what's this "carpet bombing"? It was a mere sensor sweep! Just wait for the Phaser blasts and Plasma Bolts! :)

"......and the Soviet counter-revolution......"

Nice way of putting it. While there is evidence that the conditions in Russia which led to the 1917 revolution were deliberately created (I haven't looked into that aspect in any real detail), that doesn't alter my view that the destruction of the Romanov dynasty was a good thing. For that matter, I think the electrification of the Soviet Union was essentially a good thing - regardless of the fact that it was General Electric who played a dominant role in it. But you do seem to understand *why* arch-capitalists would build up and support their supposed arch-enemies, the "Communists".

"But what point are you trying to make?"

Quite a few, actually. One point I made was "....but while the bulk of people with generally well intentioned viewpoints wrap themselves in their own righteousness and disrespect each other (a pattern I see frequently in politics), they are a manipulator's party trick. "
This is not a trivial point. I see soooo many situations where people who - when it's boiled down - have FAR more in common with each other than they're prepared to admit, are played off against each other and seem to LIKE IT! To me, the left's pathetic response to the One Nation phenomena a few years ago, and One Nation's pathetic xenophobia inspired support for Howard's Asylum Seeker policy was an example of this dynamic in action. Note that neither grass roots leftists or grass roots One Nation supporters really gained anything - no points for guessing which political/economic etc. forces DID gain. You will also note I use the term "manipulator" and NOT "controller". Another point I made here was essentially something which most leftists should be familiar with - that there is a Global Ruling Elite. Unfortunately, most leftists don't see it as much more than capitalism, and reject much of the *factual* information because much of it comes from rightists (many of whom do have quite horrible views IMHO, but that doesn't alter the facts they expose).

Some other points/views I've made in the past, and will expand on in the future:

* The GRE are NOT "controllers" or really "in control". They are *manipulators* - they are very adept at manipulating the legitimate desires/aspirations of the populace to serve their various agendas.
* That I don't *blame* these people - they are pursuing their natural law rights as predators. It is the responsibility of their prey to stop them. It should also be pointed out that they are simply doing on a vast scale what many of us (myself included - I don't pretend to be perfect) often do to each other - manipulate, cheat, steal, kill, disrespect, etc. etc.
* That while the NWO clearly causes much harm, it's not the cause of itself. The GRE can be looked at as *the personified reflection of Humanity at large*. The NWO can be looked at as a symptom of the current Human condition - a condition which includes an overwhelming tendency to submit to a victim mentality which leads to us more or less voluntarily giving our power away to various Alpha-males.
* That the NWO isn't a conspiracy per se. It utilises conspiracies (as does virtually every force), but where I think many conspiracy theorists go wrong is thinking of it as one big conspiracy (though from an esoteric perspective I think it is, but I haven't figured out a way of articulating this adequately, so I won't for now). The NWO functions in part by the coinciding of agendas and mindsets which are disempowering. Many of these agendas can seem good - agendas which include forcing assistance on those who don't want to be assisted are an example.
* That there is nothing really new about the "New World Order" - it's actually very archaic. The only thing really new about it is the scale at which it now functions, and the technology which enables it to function more effectively.
* That there is nothing really "spooky" or "out there" about this - literary works such as Machiavelli's "The Prince" or Christopher S. Hyatt's "The psychopath's bible" ( http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/04/67317_comment.php#67321 ) describe many of the NWO's dynamics.
* That while studying the details of the NWO is useful for the purposes of building a better reality map, it comes to naught if it doesn't lead to real solutions.
* That while I personally take an interest in many of the details of the NWO, I respect that many others don't and have little respect for conspiracy theorists who insist on ramming their particular narrow view of the NWO down everyone's throats.
* My main motivation for exposing this here is to help provide a more accurate reality map of the political, economic and various other Human-created systems. Also, to get feedback which helps improve the accuracy of the collective reality map. Then, the various solutions we advocate for various issues can be improved or if necessary, discarded.

There are other points I've made, but these are some of the key ones. I don't see any of these as absolutes. I am prepared to discuss, defend, expand on and if necessary discard/retract any of these as feedback (either from here or in my daily life experiences) drives me to.

"I did not dissagree with any of it but there was something very unsettling in the tone. Maybe it was that they don't say it in public or maybe just that they seemed just a little too cynical. I dunno."

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I hear what you're saying. Yes - all sorts of people talk about the NWO, for various reasons. Hell - Pat Robertson (Christian Fundamentalist, friend of George Bush Snr.) wrote a book about it. Many CTs are wittingly serving NWO agendas. Others use the knowledge they've gained from their research as a crutch which they use to pretend that they're somehow superior than "the stupid masses who don't know what's going on". Others....well one day I'll write an article about the various CTs whose works I've read - many of them have horrible views, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong.

"Now that I think about it I'm not even sure what the question is..."

I know what you mean! :)

I have some ideas about what that question(s) is, but I'm running out of time for now.

Anyway, there's plenty of dis-ease out there/in here to deal with.

Let's role!

Sorry if last nights post was a little babbly and incoherant. Was very tired when I wrote it.

What I meant by "Compasses and Pizza are 14 year old pol sci class material." was that the method of categorising peoples politics by the right/left and compass methods is a) oversimplistic and b) only works if you see politics from the point of view of mainstream capitalist ideology. It does not take into account peoples assesment of the world (only a very vague idea of what they think should happen) and it doesn't take into account where they are and their interests. It is also quite useless for communicating with people (especially non-polliticians) because you pigeonhole them.

As for the "soviet counter-revolution" whether you think that it started with Stalinism, with the Bolshevics or even earlier, I think that it is reasonable to say that when a people begin to really threaten the ruling class the crackdown will be worse the more progress they have made. For example what happened in Chile and Spain was a reaction meant to supress and demoralise people who were beginning to make real changes. In that light it is not surprising that the Soviet state became so vicious. They were supressing a society that had gotten out of their controll.

As far as there being any evidence of the West setting the WHOLE situation up... You can see patterns almost anywhere and pointing to anything but you need to look at the overall picture. I can't really see that they could have thought it would have done them any good at the time. Later on it may have (having an excuse to continously fuel their ecconomies by arming and a permanent enemy to keep the population frightened), but it would just take too much planning and forethought for them to have set it up.

Anyway, I think I agree with the rest of what you say. Just one clarification... is there any difference between your idea of "manipulators" you speak of any different from the "ruling class" etc?

Oh and I remember it being 60 something. It must have shrunk (centralisation of power?). I don't think it is actually a conspiracy theory in the sense that there are a very few families with unnimaginably immense wealth and power; BUT it is a conspiracy theory if you place too much emphasis on it. Under fuedalism a few Royal families controlled the world, however it wasn't really the kings and immediate family but the whole system they *represented* (not controlled as such), including the church, landlords, etc... If you get what I mean?

>>> As for the "soviet counter-revolution" whether you think that it started with Stalinism, with the Bolshevics or even earlier, I think that it is reasonable to say that when a people begin to really threaten the ruling class the crackdown will be worse the more progress they have made. For example what happened in Chile and Spain was a reaction meant to supress and demoralise people who were beginning to make real changes. In that light it is not surprising that the Soviet state became so vicious. They were supressing a society that had gotten out of their controll. <<<

The Soviet counter revolution has been well documented and can be searched on with " The Soviets and Workers control 1917-21"
Maximoff - ' The Guilotine at work "
Arshinov history of the Mahknovists
Search on Krondstadt and Orlando Figes at Amazon. It's all there how Lenin and Trotsky created the CHEKA in 1917 ( later to become the NKVD and then the KGB )
How they bought back the death penalty in Feb 1918.
How the bolshevics attacked anarchists in Moscow in April 1918 and muredered them and tortured them.
This was almost a classic counter revolution by these murderous sectarian socialist hating fascists.
They used the big lie technique before Goebbels in order to pass for ' socialists' when they are nothing so much as red fascists.
Most people in the world today know all this so there is no excuse for ignorance.

Now a couple of tips for our changeling light sabre - drop the ' natural law ' stuff changers and watch the NWO stuff as well - both are dead give aways yr a nutty conspiracist.

That you are functionally illiterate Pr. You did not actually respond to what I said but in your paranoid little brain "RED ALERT" went off and you automatically babbled something about "Red Facsists".

You entirely missed the point I was making which is that the closer a country gets to revolution and freedom the more violence and totalitarianism will be used to supress it. The only difference between Howard and Stalin is that Howard does not NEED to murder millions to keep the system in place because Australian's never even began to put up a fight in the first place.

If you are going to criticise everything anhybody says here and accuse them of being "fascists" then you should at least read their posts first. Otherwise you are just trolling.

You mean PR ISN'T just trolling?
Well, what on earth IS he doing here?
Is he drunk or something?

Gloria O'P.

I do not agree with a lot of what Pr says. But UNLIKE YOU we do know who he is and what he does and that he is a real activist. And MOST IMPORTANTY HE HE IS NOT A RACIST LIKE YOU SHEILA.

The only difference between howard and a communist war lord was what?
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Com on mate we've got standards here!!...you can't go blogging bullshit like that piece of runny crap....you may not be aware of it but the use of name calling or parallels with out of favor political ideals has no place in debate...Howard is not a commie nor is he fascist while greens are not watermelons. O'possom might be a racist and a naturist but she displays a dislike of all humans and Sheila may be working for the western eugenics association although her veiws seem suspiciously like someone thinking ahead and wondering aloud where are we heading with this progress thing?...in either case emina corr is a moron, she see's the opposits of people and trolls for faults while discrediting all who offer hope or worthy discussion...

The only difference between Howard and Stalin is that Howard does not NEED to murder millions to keep the system in place because Australian's never even began to put up a fight in the first place.

And Simon, you admit that Sheila O'Possum is a genocidal racist yet you support her. Interesting.

Sorry for the late response, jb - been distracted!

"It is also quite useless for communicating with people (especially non-polliticians) because you pigeonhole them."

I agree. This is why I avoid using political labels, though I've found it virtually impossible to avoid them completely so I sometimes use them from practical reasons.

".......I think that it is reasonable to say that when a people begin to really threaten the ruling class the crackdown will be worse the more progress they have made."

Generally true. It's important to remember though, that the ruling elite have often shown themselves to be very adept at encouraging *certain types* of opposition to themselves, in order to contain it. Macchievelli wrote about this, I think Karl Marx may have to.

"As far as there being any evidence of the West setting the WHOLE situation up... You can see patterns almost anywhere and pointing to anything but you need to look at the overall picture"

I don't see it as the West, per se. It just so happens that many of the players happen to based in the West. You are correct about looking at the overall picture, however it is often more fruitful to step back and look at the dominant elements of the picture. That is, if certain ruling figures keep popping up and benefitting from virtually every situation they involve themselves with, then in that context the ideologies, hopes, aspirations, etc. of the other people involved (the less dominant elements of the picture, if you like) are clearly not the main determinant of the outcome. As for whether "they" set up the Russian revolution, I haven't done enough research to really give an answer, though *apparently* the Rothschild armaments firm Vickers Maxim deliberately withheld arms shipments to the Russian army during WW1 thus ensuring the likelyhood of mutiny.
It's important to remember that none of this is about morally judging the manipulated or dismissing them as "mindless sheep" or whatever. While it can be tempting to think this way, I check myself by realising that it's a testament to Humanity in general that such devious manipulations are required to dominate them. By the same token, I find the denial of said manipulation by so many people to be as frustrating as it is understandable.

"......but it would just take too much planning and forethought for them to have set it up."

Maybe. I used to think that myself. However, when one looks at some of the techniques used to manipulate the masses, one learns not to make that assumption!

"...is there any difference between your idea of "manipulators" you speak of any different from the "ruling class" etc?"

Hmmm. It depends how you define ruling class. Many people see someone who's extremely wealthy and assume that makes them a member of the ruling class. What is often forgotten is that wealthy people are often easier to manipulate than the impoverished - they have more to lose. The arch-manipulators - the Global Ruling elite - are wealthy by default, but it is POWER that is their overriding goal. As such they will happily manipulate those below them in the power pyramid, regardless of how stinking rich they are.

Ultimately, all of this becomes untenable to analyse if it is looked at only through a conspiracist lense. While conspiracism can be useful for helping model it (certainly more useful than the standard political models), in the end we are all subservient to the laws which guide the Universe. As such, models in such areas as memetics, chaos theory and quantum mechanics are more useful to explain the situations global society finds itself in.

But that's a topic for another day!