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Oil: Living with Less
by Dr Malcolm Riddoch Friday August 13, 2004 at 02:30 PM

It looks like the peak oil message is starting to make some inroads at the state government level, at least in Western Australia. The Sustainable Transport Coalition's 'Oil: Living with Less' conference was held at the Perth Convention Centre on Monday August 9th and was opened by the state Minister for Planning and Infrastructure, Ms Alannah MacTiernan.

Alanah MacTiernan, who seems to be a genuine peak oil convert, recognises that "a problem is emerging" and mentioned peak in the time frame 2010-2035 although obviously thought it was more likely sooner than later. While she is perhaps the only one in cabinet who is onto the problem her portfolio is perfect for a peak oil advocate. There are some large projects underway in Western Australia such as a new train line tunneling under the CBD and a second gas pipeline coming down from the North West shelf that apparently have been brought forward at least in part by the oil supply concerns. An emphasis on bus transport and a move away from our car based culture was also evident.

The view from the convention centre windows at the lunch break was informative, there is a big field of mud where there used to be a freeway onramp soon to be a rail station for the new line. Is Perth the only capital city in Australia that is demolishing freeway to make way for rail?

Bruce Robinson of the Sustainable Transport Coalition claimed that WA is a 'world leader' in its approach to oil depletion although I think we've got a long way to go as it is still very much a car based culture with massive suburban sprawl.

Brian Fleahy warned that while "water is renewable the energy used in its delivery systems isn't". A new peak capacity power station is being built to cope with growth in electricity consumption, probably using gas, and the desalination plant will use a lot of that as well. A sustainable water policy is important for Perth's future as rainfall runoff into our catchments has apparently fallen by over 50% since the mid-70's and the drought is accelerating. Fossil fuel based global warming is having a drastic effect on our local climate and apparently Perth is the canary in the coal mine for all of Australia with Dr Tim Flannery warning recently it may become a ghost town.

Dr Ali Samsam Bakhtiari, of the National Iranian Oil Company, suggested that Australia is better placed than perhaps most other nations and was surprised at the level of discussion of the problem in WA. He sees a global peak in oil production by 2006-2007, no later than 2008 and does not think non-conventional (deepwater and arctic) oil will make much of a difference. Outside of the Middle East, oil production worldwide is already falling and the Persian Gulf oil supply is itself largely founded on old super giant fields like Ghawar.

He claims both Saudi and Iranian fields are overextended and the only good fields left are in Iraq. The largely unexplored Iraq western desert may hold upwards of 40 Gbl, or nothing at all, and if ever brought online optimum production in all of Iraq could be over 6 mbl/d according to his calculations. However, this optimistic level of production should be compared with our current consumption of 81+ mb/d and strong demand growth of 3% or more per annum, a production level that Dr Bakhtiari thinks is already very close to its peak.

There will probably be a fairly long plateau period for Persian Gulf oil though which will therefore increasingly play an even more important role in world supply but there is currently very little leeway as far as spare capacity goes. He warns that our way of life will change 'very, very soon' and that change will be absolute and unprecedented.

Dr Bakhtiari left after his talk to brief state cabinet on the oil situation before returning for the afternoon sessions. He also appeared on the local commercial news with Channel 10 leading with a short interview and the headline 'petrol to rise to $3/L in 2-3 years'. It's the first mainstream peak oil news byte I've seen on Australian TV, and both the conference and cabinet meeting made the business section headline in the West Australian newspaper. His talk at the conference seemed to make the biggest impact as he stressed the global urgency of the problem and its massive implications for our way of life, something the STC perhaps isn't as focused on with its emphasis on transportation issues. The food production problem for instance didn't get much of a hearing, an omission Brian Fleahy pointed out.

Overall there was a good mix of people from business, the unions, government, charity organisations and others. There was even a talk by David Smith from the state Treasury Department on the modeling they've done based on a 20% rise in fuel prices. Nothing particularly interesting apart from the fact they're looking at the problem in the first place. Lisa Baker of the WA Council of Social Services (WACOSS) gave a talk on the growing poverty levels in WA and the problems faced by especially rural communities that rely on car transport to connect with services that are already shrinking along with employment. She claimed charity organisations around the state are already strained by rising fuel costs and the regional poor are very vulnerable especially where demand for charity assistance has risen sharply the last couple of years with over 500 000 transactions per year statewide. So much for trickle down economics.

The afternoon session was divided into three scenarios, fuel prices staying at $1, rising to $3, and the supposedly extreme scenario of $10/L oil. I opted to see what they thought of the $10 scenario. It started out rather optimistically with estimates of the timeframe for $10 petrol within about 20 years or so until we considered the possibility of the outbreak of a wider Middle East conflict. The scenario was then split into two possibilities, one being a short term spike in price due to war or other unforeseen circumstances and the second due to the longer term supply decline as the resource depletes. The severe oil shock was seen as much more problematic as far as its economic consequences and our community's ability to respond goes.

Generally there seemed to be, at least initially, an emphasis on how we might transition to more efficient transport and the STC people seem to believe that a hydrogen economy is possible. The ultra-light sub 1 litre car was even economical at $10/L petrol. However, after it was pointed out that the US economy is over $US30 trillion in debt, the Australian economy over $AUS1 trillion in debt with both economies driven by middle class credit spending, the possible economic chaos caused by this $10 scenario highlighted the difficulties that might be faced in any transition to a more energy efficient economy.

Basically by the end we seemed to agree that the $10/L scenario is quite probably a national and state emergency scenario, especially in the event of a sudden oil shock driven by war. Such a shock could very well result in a global economic crash and the collapse of international trade as air and sea freight costs go through the roof. By the time I mentioned the possibility of hyperinflation and terminal economic depression with the debt ridden middle classes being just as vulnerable as the poor the discussion got rather heated. I think there may have been a few debt ridden middle income earners there.

Overall the scenario calls for a massive localisation of travel, manufacturing of basic commodities, food production, education and other services - that is, a return to earlier modes of community. The STC delegates put the big picture together rather quickly and stressed the need for a move to cycling and public transport, to the use of trains and even shipping for moving goods around Australia, and the necessity of a coordinated response at the local, state and national level. In the medium term WA's gas supply looks like a lifesaver so long as we don't turn into a desert too quickly and the stated reserves don't deplete too quickly. A point was made that transport and travel will revolve more around considerations of cost rather than time, for instance moving freight by truck in 36 hours coast to coast will give way to slower rail and even possibly shipping as the costs scale up. There may even be a return to passenger shipping with someone mentioning the cheap Asian sea fares that students took advantage of in the 70's.

Dr Bakhtiari sat in on the session for the last 30 minutes or so and by the end we were into emergency government and war economy scenarios in the context of a severe oil price shock and/or global economic depression. Dr Bakhtiari suggested that it would require an act of god for the world to avoid warring over depleting energy resources, at which point our time was up. He also said the best thing we could do is to talk about it as we were already doing since planning and change needs to happen now, and that change is already on its way whether we plan for it or not.

Sustainable Transport Coalition - 'Oil: Living with Less'
Media Statement - WA Dept Planning and Infrastructure
Association for the Study of Peak Oil
Energy Bulletin

add your comments


Global/Australian oil production graph
by AdamF Friday August 13, 2004 at 03:35 PM

Global/Australian oi...
robinson_1.png, image/png, 451x340

This is a slighly older version of a slide Bruce Robinson showed last night when he and Dr Bakhtiari spoke in Melbourne.
Refs:
Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association (APPEA)
http://www.appea.com.au/
Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas (ASPO)
http://www.peakoil.net

add your comments


WA Government moving to reduce oil dependence
by Minister Alannah MacTiernan Friday August 13, 2004 at 04:02 PM

Statement Released: 10-Aug-2004
Portfolio: Planning and Infrastructure

Amid predictions of long-term price hikes, the Gallop Government is already moving to reduce Western Australia's dependence on oil, according to Planning and Infrastructure Minister Alannah MacTiernan.

Ms MacTiernan said the Government had a broad-based strategy designed to minimise the State's long-term dependence on oil.

This strategy involved:

· diversifying fuel sources;

· reducing motor vehicle dependency; and

· integrating transport and land use planning.

"For the economic, social and environmental well-being of our State, we are taking steps now to reduce our oil dependency," the Minister said.

Diversifying fuel sources

The Government will take possession of 451 Euro 4 emission standard gas buses during the next seven years. This follows a decision in 2001 to negotiate a change in the bus purchasing deal with the Mercedes-Benz OC 500LE's supplier, DaimlerChrysler - switching the contract from diesel to gas.

Perth is one of 11 cities across the world participating in a major trial of hydrogen fuel cell buses. Three buses will arrive in Perth later this month as part of the $10million project. An international conference on the merits of hydrogen will be staged in Perth next month.

The Government has entered into an agreement with Murdoch University that will see a series of research programs examine the benefits of hydrogen-based transport.

The Gallop Government has continued the $500 LPG vehicle subsidy scheme.

Reducing motor vehicle dependency

· The Government has embarked on the State's biggest-ever public transport project - the $1.5billion New MetroRail Project.

· New MetroRail will double the size of Perth's urban passenger rail system, adding over 80km of track on three lines, including a line to Mandurah, and doubling the number of railcars.

· New MetroRail will carry almost 35,000 people each weekday and take 25,000 cars off our freeways.

· Work-related patronage on the Southern Suburbs Railway alone will save almost 15million litres of fuel each year.

· General improvements to our public transport system include better security on all trains and at all stations; the new SmartRider ticketing system; major upgrades to six stations as part of the $15million Building Better Stations program; and the modernisation of the country coach fleet, rail services and town bus services.

· We are expanding our cycling network - from February 2001 to June 2004, the State Government has spent more than $50million on cycling infrastructure, with another $8million earmarked this year. The number of people using the Perth Bicycle Network has doubled during the last five years.

Integrating transport and land use planning

The Gallop Government has devised a plan to move freight more efficiently between the port and industrial areas - this will see the use of rail into Fremantle Port increase from three per cent to 30 per cent and reduce the number of trucks on our roads.

The Government has conducted the biggest community consultation - Dialogue with the City - to develop a framework to contain urban sprawl and build more dynamic local population centres around transport nodes.

The Planning and Infrastructure portfolio has also reduced the number of six-cylinder vehicles by 15 per cent in the last 12 months and has also increased the number of Toyota Prius hybrids in the fleet to 16.

"We have appointed the Transport Energy Strategy Committee to advise on how WA can best develop diversified sources of energy that are economically, environmentally and socially sustainable. These recommendations are currently under review," Ms MacTiernan said.

Minister's office: (08) 9213 6400
http://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/media/media.nsf/9dbd10dc05971ee348256a76000cc002/fdd33c812b9b1f5248256eec001b46fc?OpenDocument

add your comments


well
by Regular Friday August 13, 2004 at 05:08 PM

Well it looks like oil may have finally peaked, all brought on by a war and Chinas ever increasing thirst.

Bring on the hybrids and alternative fuels.

add your comments


^oil production ^
by Regular Friday August 13, 2004 at 05:14 PM

:) :) :) :)

add your comments


Peak Snakeoil Company Lies
by * Friday August 13, 2004 at 05:42 PM

Peak Snakeoil Compan...
australia-oil2002.gif6mthjb.gif, image/gif, 359x242

I WONDER WHY THE HEAD OF THE IRANIAN OIL COMPANY MIGHT WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK THAT OIL IS GOING TO RUN OUT (HE HAS ALSO PREVIOUSLY CLAIMED THAT IT WILL RUN OUT BY 2006!!!!!!!)? COULD IT BE TO PUSH UP OIL PRICES MAYBE?!!!!! AND AN INTERESTING MIX OF PEOPLE FROM THE FUCKING OIL INDUSTRY YOU HAVE SUPPORTING YOU...

Funny that Peak Oil's own chart shows that oil HAS NOT PEAKED yet (as they claimed on previous threads).

But I wouldn't even put too much credit in that chart given that
- It predicts that PRODUCTION will fall, but doesn't say WHY.
- Their chart about Australian oil production is blatantly FALSE. For starters it only shows ONE Australian oil field... But more importantly it is just plain WRONG. Bass Straight has actually been producing MORE oil over the last couple of years. The problem is that two of the older fields have been declining and mainly that demand has been going up faster than production.

Australia's oil production has been declining since 2002. However there are large oil and gass reserves off the coast of WA, NT and around Cartier Island - the reason Australias territorial waters keep expanding. THe other thing to note is that there are large deposits (30 BILLION BARRELS!) of shale oil off of Queensland (Barrier Reef) which the oil companies are slowly getting their claws into exploration and drilling rights for.

"Australia's oil production had increased gradually since 1980, peaking in 2000 at 805,000 bbl/d, 722,000 bbl/d of which was crude oil. In 2002, as was expected, production fell dramatically to 626,000 and since then, has continued to fall with production estimates for 2003 below 600,000 bbl/d. Australia's Bureau of Agriculture and Resource Economics (ABARE) has estimated that production will fall further to 560,000 bbl/d by 2006. Declines are due primarily to decreasing production at the Cooper-Eromanga and Gippsland basins. The country’s other major basins, the Carnarvon and Bonaparte, have both yielded increasing amounts of oil in recent years, but have been unable to keep up with the country’s rapidly growing demand. "
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/australi.html


MORE...

add your comments


Anti-Peak Snakeoil * Lies
by Malcolm Riddoch Friday August 13, 2004 at 07:39 PM

Judging from your various rants you are obviously rather upset about the possibility that global oil production may reach a peak sometime in the next few years, and fair enough, it is a rather disturbing prospect to consider.

As you point out, Australian production is in a general decline at a time when global oil supply is already straining to keep up with demand. It looks like our growing dependence on foreign oil is coming at a time of increasing insecurity in supply, no wonder we have troops in Iraq already.

I wish you luck with your peak oil conspiracy and belief in abiotic oil, if they help you cope with your fears for the future then who am I to burst your bubble?

I would also encourage you to keep posting your anti-peak theories and ad hominem attacks to the newswire, shout out about it long and loud because this problem needs to be publicly acknowledged and talked about.

Who knows, maybe it will turn out to be another millennial panic? Either that or the most serious threat to our way of life since the industrial revolution began.

add your comments


Malcom and the theft of Common Resources for a small elite
by Kenny Boy and the secret energy policy Friday August 13, 2004 at 08:12 PM

thanks for addressing the content of the articles demonstrating that "peak oil" is a marketing myth identical to the shorting of the californian electricity supplies, malcolm.

Good "science"!

add your comments


Peak Snakeoil's use of oil company executives, propaganda and dodgy figures.
by *** Friday August 13, 2004 at 10:53 PM

So far in these debates Peak Oil (with the exception of Liamj - who I don't agree with but at least is capable of rational discussion) has continually used dodgy figures, pseudoscience a scaremongering. They have completely ignored the well researched arguments against Peak Oil in preference for posting unsubstantiated attacks and distortions of the arguments like Malcolm Riddoch's post above.

But the other thing to note is that I have deliberately avoided using figures, quotes or reports from oil companies themselves. I have always tried to get figures from as independent sources (though in the end all the figures come from oil companies anywy) as possible and check them with a few different sources.

Peak Oil however, doesn't see any problem with having the HEAD OF THE IRANIAN NATIONAL OIL COMPANY speak for them. They have also continually used quotes by oil industry and oil company executives used to justify their positions. Here they also talk about the "good mix" at their meeting - including government, big business and oil industry. On the previous thread there is a letter by the Operations and HSE Manager of ChevronTexaco, Rio de Janeiro trying to discredit abiogenesis theories.
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/08/75930_comment.php#76114

The whole sudden appearance of so much well-funded and big-business backed propaganda strikes me as a classic corporate PR campaign. Especially because it comes at a time when oil prices are sky rocketing due to politics, wars and massive overpricing by oil companies. It is perfect cover to distract people from the real reasons for both high oil prices and the Iraq war. It also has come with a massive push for more subsidies to business and more destructive environmental practices. And from the same discredited "scientists" and theories that have been predicting the imminent end of oil since the 70s. The same people who said we would have run out of oil completely by 1996!

It would be nice to see some reasonable discussion on this issue. But I can see that it won't come from Peak Oil. They know that if they tell a big enough lie enough times people will believe it.

add your comments


Big business backing?
by Sheila Newman Friday August 13, 2004 at 11:59 PM

Re Snake-oil,

The peak oil issue has received tons of intensive discussion since Jay Hanson started the Darwin E-List in about 1998. He next started the Energy Resources list.

I used the ER list to hammer out oil economics arguments when doing a research thesis. It was very useful.

No-one was making any money out of any of this then. Colin Campbell and Jean LaHerrere and a few others used those lists frequently.

I have done a lot of research in this area and possibly have approached it from more points of view than most.

Not only does the Hubbert Peak curve test better retrospectively with every year, but this seems to be the case with regional supplies as well.

You can also approach the whole question from the point of view of per capita oil globally. This will show you a more or less steady decline in per capita availability since 1979. You might be able to think of some commercial conspiracy theory for that, but personally I can't see how or who might profit and for what?

The above per capita availability is also viewable from another angle - the "economic growth and economic purchasing parity trends over time", of which Maddison, of the OECD is the major exponent. Maddison doesn't mention oil but he does chronicle economic growth regionally, nationally and globally, from about 1870 to 1999. His data, which is very comprehensive, shows a decline in per capita economic growth since about 1979 as well.

My own research shows that Australia and the US used international debt(funded by equity) to prop up their economies so that they could continue to expand infrastructure and population growth fueled by increased amounts of oil. Western continental Europe, however, did not go into debt, slowed population growth down, stopped infrastructure expansion, consolidated, diminished national and per capita growth in oil consumption and all energy consumption.
The third world got what was left and what it could afford, which was very little.

If you go to the GeoScience 2002 report on oil and gas in Australia (available on the government site of Resources and Tourism (federal site), you can read a number of easy to understand explanations of how oil production from wells is predicted. These also compare US methods and well types with ours. The conclusion is that we have about 6 years of oil left here.

Sheila Newman

add your comments


Faith No More
by The Peak Electricity Scam Saturday August 14, 2004 at 05:12 AM

I think you are full of shit, Sheila - otherwise you would post what you call your "own research" instead of referring to it without doing so, and instead of dropping names of "experts" as if doing so somehow supports your assertions.


What happened to the electricity supply in California?

Do you really think that dinosaurs and cabbage residues can possibly explain the vast resevoirs of volatile hydrocarbons found to date?

How do you explain the following:
================================
About 80 miles off of the coast of Louisiana lies a mostly submerged mountain, the top of which is known as Eugene Island. The portion underwater is an eerie-looking, sloping tower jutting up from the depths of the Gulf of Mexico, with deep fissures and perpendicular faults which spontaneously spew natural gas. A significant reservoir of crude oil was discovered nearby in the late '60s, and by 1970, a platform named Eugene 330 was busily producing about 15,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil.

By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
==================================

add your comments


Just found this site
by Amused Saturday August 14, 2004 at 06:48 AM

Some people here seem to think that they can scare off peak oil by TYPING IN CAPS. That is a very amusing response, but altogether, a decidedly modern one. I think that this behaviour is perhaps the best example of how modern man has forgotten the difference between energy and information.

No, the human does not always get what he/she wants. Even if you type it in CAPS.

add your comments


Still No Faith! - Wow!
by The Peak Electricity Scam Saturday August 14, 2004 at 07:34 AM

I regret to inform you that science doesn't progress by authority, nor by popularity of unsubstantiated assertion, NOR BY APPEAL TO RIDICULE. (see logical fallacies at Nizkor)

Please refer to the content. Here 'tis again:


======================================
I think you are full of shit, Sheila - otherwise you would post what you call your "own research" instead of referring to it without doing so, and instead of dropping names of "experts" as if doing so somehow supports your assertions.


What happened to the electricity supply in California?

Do you really think that dinosaurs and cabbage residues can possibly explain the vast resevoirs of volatile hydrocarbons found to date?

How do you explain the following:
================================
About 80 miles off of the coast of Louisiana lies a mostly submerged mountain, the top of which is known as Eugene Island. The portion underwater is an eerie-looking, sloping tower jutting up from the depths of the Gulf of Mexico, with deep fissures and perpendicular faults which spontaneously spew natural gas. A significant reservoir of crude oil was discovered nearby in the late '60s, and by 1970, a platform named Eugene 330 was busily producing about 15,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil.

By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
==================================

add your comments


The head of the Iranian oil company loves Peak Oil
by *** Saturday August 14, 2004 at 10:19 AM

"I have done a lot of research in this area and possibly have approached it from more points of view than most."
Interesting that you have not put up any of "your" "research". Or even said what the conclusions were or even what it was about.

"Not only does the Hubbert Peak curve test better retrospectively with every year, but this seems to be the case with regional supplies as well."
The Hubbert curve claimed that we would have RUN OUT OF OIL BY 1996! Besides which the only part of the Hubbert curve that ever comes close to the truth is the bit where PRODUCTION INCREASES.

"You can also approach the whole question from the point of view of per capita oil globally. This will show you a more or less steady decline in per capita availability since 1979."
If this was true why don't you put the figures up? I have put up figures and linked to support ALL the information I have used here. Besides which all that would prove (assuming there was any truth to it) is that demand is going up faster than production. It does not prove ANYTHING about oil running out AT ALL.

"You might be able to think of some commercial conspiracy theory for that, but personally I can't see how or who might profit and for what?"
Oil companies profit by justifying and puwhing up the price of oil. This is not even a "conspiracy theory" (which is just a term of abuse in this case anyway), it is WELL DOCUMENTED ECCONOMIC FACT. The US and OPEC and other oil producers have ALWAYS worked to keep the price up. What do you think they have production quotas for? If you want to read more about this Ted Wheelright's book "Oil and World Politics" goes through a lot of the basic history of this. But you can find examples of this almost everywhere (except Peak Oil sites).

"The above per capita availability is also viewable from another angle - the "economic growth and economic purchasing parity trends over time", of which Maddison, of the OECD is the major exponent. Maddison doesn't mention oil but he does chronicle economic growth regionally, nationally and globally, from about 1870 to 1999. His data, which is very comprehensive, shows a decline in per capita economic growth since about 1979 as well."
Maddison, as you said "doesn't mention oil". THe only reason you bring this up at all is to sound knowledgable (which you clearly arent) and to push your own population controll barrow.

"My own research shows that Australia and the US used international debt(funded by equity) to prop up their economies so that they could continue to expand infrastructure and population growth fueled by increased amounts of oil. Western continental Europe, however, did not go into debt, slowed population growth down, stopped infrastructure expansion, consolidated, diminished national and per capita growth in oil consumption and all energy consumption.
The third world got what was left and what it could afford, which was very little."

Firsty that is Maddisons reasearch NOT yours. You just throw in the bit about oil. Seccondly, the actual reason why European GDP is increasing slightly faster than Australias and the US is that they took longer to recover from WW2 etc which pushed their GDP DOWN. Spain's ecconomy has still been recovering from Franco and figures from all the Eastern European countries are distorted by fall of cmmunism.

"If you go to the GeoScience 2002 report on oil and gas in Australia (available on the government site of Resources and Tourism (federal site), you can read a number of easy to understand explanations of how oil production from wells is predicted. These also compare US methods and well types with ours. The conclusion is that we have about 6 years of oil left here"

THat is EXTREMELY RUDE AND PATRONISING. As you can see from ALL MY POSTS I have looked at many figures from different sources and been considerate enough to post actual quotes, links and references to info.


Basically Sheila, you have completely ignored ALL the carefully researched arguments, figures and facts that we have put up here. You have given no arguments, facts or research in your post at all (just like all the other Peak Oil scammers). You have just distorted and ignored the whole discussion, been rude and patronising and talked out your arsehole as usual.

add your comments


Sheila's Research site URL
by Sheila Newman Saturday August 14, 2004 at 11:03 AM
smnaesp@alphalink.com.au

Thank you for ASKING.
Here is where you can read my research:

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~smnaesp/populationspeculation.htm

Maybe cut to Chapter 7 first?

I can't remember if my appendices are up there. Let me know if you want them. They are full of graphs and figures.

With regard to Maddison, remind me and I will get round to posting my arguments with Prof Castles last year.

Thanks again for asking and please read.

SN.

add your comments


Population Control freaks and anti-semites unite in the ARP
by *** Saturday August 14, 2004 at 11:16 AM

Please read out arguments and repond to them or fuck off Sheila and take your stalking neo-nazi sidekick Bill with you.

add your comments


Sheilas "research"
by *** Saturday August 14, 2004 at 11:54 AM

After skimming through as much of Sheila's reactionary anti-immigration garbage in "THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT AND HOUSING INDUSTRIES AND IMMIGRATION POLICY IN AUSTRALIA AND FRANCE" as I could stomach I can tell you all:
a) There is nothing in there at all to support the science behind Peak Oil. Which is not the subject anyway of her study anyway.
b) She has totally left out political factors, particularly in the Middle East, relating to energy (aside from her spurious claims about multiculturalism).
If I missed something Sheila maybe you could lower yourself to actually posting your arguments here. But untill then fuck off and take Bill with you.

The thread below has plenty of consice and credible discussion about the real reasons behind the price of oil. But so far Peak Oil has completely ignored it all.

add your comments


Real reasons behind oil price rise
by *** Saturday August 14, 2004 at 01:21 PM

Gasoline Supply Fears Drive Oil Higher

Reuters
Monday, March 8, 2004; 9:37 AM


LONDON - Oil prices held at post-Iraq war highs on Monday as low U.S. gasoline inventories and unrest in OPEC member Venezuela heightened fears over supplies for the U.S. summer driving demand.

London Brent crude was steady at $33.35 a barrel, within 25 cents of Friday's new 12-month peak, which was the highest level since just before last year's U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. U.S. light crude was down nine cents at $37.17 a barrel.

Low stocks of crude and gasoline in the United States have raised fears of a supply crunch in the summer holiday season, when demand for motor fuel peaks.

Violent street protests by foes of President Hugo Chavez who are demanding a referendum on his rule have raised fears of a possible repeat of a two-month strike at national oil company PDVSA last year that briefly shut most of Venezuela's crude production. Venezuela is the world's fifth-largest oil exporter and a major supplier to the United States.

"With U.S. stocks already so tight, the mere possibility of a repeat of the strikes in Venezuela that paralyzed the oil industry has the attention of even the most complacent market watcher," said Washington-based analysts PFC Energy.

Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), which spearheaded last year's strike, is less likely to be at the forefront this time, analysts said.

"Chavez effectively purged PDVSA, leaving his supporters firmly in control, and the opposition remains too fragmented to effectively stage a repeat of the work stoppages seen during the last strike," the PFC report said.

Oil's stubborn strength enabled traders to shrug off news of Iraq's first sale from its northern oilfields since the U.S.-led occupation almost a year ago.

Baghdad about 10 days ago quietly reopened its northern export pipeline through Turkey, gradually filling storage facilities at the Turkish Mediterranean port of Ceyhan.

The Kirkuk line has been the target of numerous sabotage attacks since the war ended last May. The sale should lift total Iraqi crude exports in March above two million barrels daily for the first time since the war.

Prices gained fresh support last week from signals from OPEC producers that they would carry through last month's agreement to reduce production quotas by one million barrels per day (bpd) from April and to eliminate about 1.5 million bpd of excess output above existing limits.

OPEC President Purnomo Yusgiantoro said on Monday the group would guarantee oil supplies to the market at times of high prices, but would go through with the planned April cut.

Buyers of crude from major suppliers such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iran are waiting for notification in the next few days of the volumes they will receive next month, which should be lower than in March due to OPEC's planned cut.

A source at state oil company Aramco said on Monday Saudi Arabia ordered a production cut of five percent at its Shaybah oilfield from March 1, in a decision apparently linked to February's OPEC deal.

"It seems very clear that even with OPEC comments about the desirability of prices moving back to the middle of their $22-$28 band -- which equates to an average (U.S. crude) price of about $27, there's no evident hurry to push crude values down toward that level," Merrill Lynch bank in a research report.

Heavy buying from speculative funds in U.S. gasoline and crude futures have helped drive prices higher. Funds have amassed the highest net long position -- a bet prices will rise -- in crude since September 1999, according to the Commodities Futures Trading Commission on Friday.

"So long as U.S. economic growth remains strong, Chinese oil demand rises nearly 10 percent each year, and American interest rates do not increase, there is little likelihood that the "global macro" funds will cut their long positions in oil," said SG Securities in an research note.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39842-2004Mar8.html




World oil prices rise as IEA questions 45-dollar oil

Wed Aug 11,10:55 AM ET Add Business - AFP to My Yahoo!



LONDON (AFP) - World oil prices continued their march upwards in trading, shrugging off a warning by the International Energy Agency (IEA) that the market is showing "irrational exuberance".

Quote Data provided by Reuters



Brent North Sea crude oil for September rose 18 cents to 41.46 dollars per barrel in early afternoon trading in London, heading towards the intra-day record high level of 41.70 dollars reached Monday.


New York's light, sweet crude for September delivery climbed 14 cents to 44.66 dollars in pre-opening electronic trading.


New York's main oil contract shot above 45 dollars for the first time Tuesday to 45.04 dollars in formal trading, leading the IEA to question the justification for such a price.


The IEA began its monthly review of global energy markets with a chapter headlined "Irrational exuberance", echoing prophetic words used by US Federal Reserve (news - web sites) chairman Alan Greenspan (news - web sites) well before the stock market bubble burst three years ago.


"The market is tight, production and infrastructure capacity is less than desired and uncertainties continue to weigh on the market. But, does this justify 45-dollar oil? Current oil prices are a concern and are causing economic damage," the IEA said.


Helping to push prices higher Wednesday was news that major producer Iraq (news - web sites) had halved its crude exports after the closure there of a southern pipeline earlier in the week because of the threat of attack.


"The market remains on edge over any potential disruption to supplies, which are running at almost full-throttle to satisfy the fastest growth in demand for over two decades," analysts at the Sucden brokerage firm said.


The IEA Wednesday forecast a slowing of a surge of demand in North America and China as their economies cooled.


The agency also made little change to its forecast from a month ago for the growth of global demand for oil, saying this stood at 2.53 million barrels per day this year and 1.8 million barrels per day next year.


Analysts questioned the IEA's figures, however.


"The IEA is notorious for underestimating demand," Investec analyst Bruce Evers said.


"Two and a half million (barrels per day) is too low for this year and the 2005 number will be higher as well," he said.


The market was meanwhile awaiting publication later Wednesday of the latest weekly US commercial oil inventories with analysts forecasting increases in crude and gasoline stocks but a fall in distillates, or diesel and heating oil.


In Iraq, the national security council said that the closure of a southern oil pipeline, following a militia threat of attack there earlier in the week, had halved Iraqi crude exports and led to daily losses of 30 million dollars.


"If the entire pipeline is blocked, Iraq will suffer from a daily 60-million-dollar financial loss, finances that would otherwise be used to feed the people, pay their salaries... and rebuild their country," the council said.


There was better news, however, for Russia's embattled oil giant Yukos.





A top Russian energy official urged the justice ministry to unfreeze the bank accounts of the country's largest oil producer because its breakdown could see world oil prices soar.

The comments represented a rare piece of good news for Russia's wounded giant, as it appeared to win a key government official to its cause.

Yukos, burdened with a 3.4-billion-dollar tax bill for 2000, produces about 1.7 million barrels of oil per day, equivalent to about one fifth of Saudi Arabia's output.

The IEA said that the tax claims and confusion threatening the future of Yukos were unlikely to undermine Russia as a leading oil producer.

"We persist in the belief that sustained disruption to production and exports is in the interests of neither the Russian government nor Yukos," it said.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1518&ncid=1518&e=1&u=/afp/20040811/bs_afp/oil_price_040811145545

add your comments


And...
by *** Saturday August 14, 2004 at 02:04 PM

"My own research shows that Australia and the US used international debt(funded by equity) to prop up their economies so that they could continue to expand infrastructure and population growth fueled by increased amounts of oil"
Sheilas whole premise is wrong because you only look at oil. Australia generally has generally produced 80% to 90% of it's own oil (though this goes up and down). But if you take into account coal and gass - Australia is a net ENERGY EXPORTER. It has never put any serious developement into it's oil resources because it has always made way more profit from coal.

But you will probably ignore these facts as you have ignored, distorted or ridiculed every other fact or argument put forward on these threads.

Also, it is interesting that you decide to look to the French immigration system as an example for Australia. France which is currently experiencing an outbreak of extremism and racism against migrants. But then that is exactly what the ARP wants, isnt it Sheila?

add your comments


Chapter 7
by Sheila N Saturday August 14, 2004 at 04:36 PM

There is no way you could skim through a thesis with three different literature reviews. I don't believe you even read the introduction to chapter 7.

I guess it is a bit complicated. It took about five years to write. I am also referring to ongoing work.

What you can read in Chapter 7 is evidence of different ways of treating energy use after the oil shock of 1973, 1987 by two different geopolitical regions: One was the English speaking one and the other was the Western Continental European region.

The theory is complex but basically Western Europe drastically cut back on population growth and on energy use, both national and per capita. Its growth in these has since remained much lower than the growth in energy drawdown of the English speaking geopolities.

There is also treatment of how the 1973 oil shock was perceived by the Anglos and the Continentals. The continentals had experienced starvation through war in living memory and they were vigilant about food and fuel sources being cut off. Since the Suez Canal oil problems, they were alert to having oil cut off. After 1973 they basically allowed the idea that oil was a finite commodity and they greatly reduced their dependence on it.

I use a number of indicators to show policy and practice and these are linked to oil use. For instace, in that chapter you will also see how the number of new dwellings was drastically cut back between 1973 and 1974, first public housing, next private housing.

These kinds of infrastructure are major users of energy.

Contrast what happened in Australia, which is documented also, and in great detail.

The second, third and fourth chapters deal with:

- things like measures of energy and land fertility
- different land-use planning and housing systems
- traditional literature about immigration

in the form of literature reviews.

The subject of the thesis is not really immigration; it is population growth. But since I set out to find out why Australia had rapid and continuous population growth, I had to deal with immigration as well as birth rates and death rates. This led to the question of Why did Australia continue to have high immigration after 1973 but most countries did not?

I discovered that Whitlam attempted to greatly reduce Australia's population growth rate but lost office and then the growthist Prime minister Fraser broke down foreign acquisitions law, engaged in foreign finance raising in exchange for equity, etc etc.

There is absolutely nothing racist in my thesis. Have a look at chapter 4 on Traditional immigration literature. That's where you will find all the race preoccupied writers.

My thesis shows that the property development and housing industry drives immigration and, increasingly, government in Australia and the US. The 'industry' spans several 'industries' including banking, via mortgage industry, and raw materials, involving mining and forestry etc. These materials are also measures of population impact.

If you actually read it you would be able to argue logically with me.

With regard to other aspects of my argument. The material about the OECD economic growth rates isn't available to me here and wasn't discussed in my thesis. But I will post it here when I can.

It links in with methods of coping with diminishing energy, one of which is reining in growth - of infrastructure and the people who use it.

You see, you are asking for a simple explanation when it takes a whole book just to fill you in on the basics.

Why don't you join ROEOZ or Energy Resources (which are both on yahoo) and learn a bit about the peak theories. Actually I can't see why you are so invested in your anti-peak argument, anyway. What's the big deal?


Sheila N

add your comments


STILL WAITING!
by The Peak Electricity Scam Saturday August 14, 2004 at 06:13 PM

What happened to the electricity supply in California?

Do you really think that dinosaurs and cabbage residues can possibly explain the vast resevoirs of volatile hydrocarbons found to date?

How do you explain the following:
================================
About 80 miles off of the coast of Louisiana lies a mostly submerged mountain, the top of which is known as Eugene Island. The portion underwater is an eerie-looking, sloping tower jutting up from the depths of the Gulf of Mexico, with deep fissures and perpendicular faults which spontaneously spew natural gas. A significant reservoir of crude oil was discovered nearby in the late '60s, and by 1970, a platform named Eugene 330 was busily producing about 15,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil.

By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
======================================

add your comments


Why are Lies so Important To You?
by The Peak Electricity Scam Saturday August 14, 2004 at 08:11 PM

why you are so invested in your peak oil lies, anyway, Sheila.

What's the big deal?

add your comments


Why this is so important to Sheila
by someone not welcome in SPA's anglo-Australia Saturday August 14, 2004 at 10:20 PM

Why this crap is so important to Sheila Newman, President Victorian Branch, Sustainable Population Australia.

add your comments


Why Peak Oil is so Important
by Dr Strangelove Saturday August 14, 2004 at 11:21 PM

The anti peak oil conspiracy crew are somewhat excitable aren't they Sheila? I find their agenda, ad hominem baits and peddling of pseudo science rather intriguing. Are they or have they ever been members of the Young Liberals do you think?

Peak Oil theory is largely championed by independent, retired and academic geologists, it remains anathema to the mainstream press and their corporate watchdogs as once it takes hold in the stock markets it will cause chaos. It also undermines the entire rationale for the war on 'terror'. Only a corporate and governmental stooge would argue otherwise.

I'm convinced that politicians like Bush, Blair and Howard know full well how dire the current energy problem is, and that it is entirely in their interests to supress any public recognition of its urgency. Cheney certainly knew as he's on the record as implicitly recognising the coming energy crisis in 1999 in a speech he gave as chair of Halliburton. Matt Simmons has advised Bush on the problem and was an adviser on Cheney's energy policy.

Unfortunately the actions taken to face this crisis have been a virtual blackout on its reporting in the mass media and the execution of what seems to be a supreme crime of aggression against Iraq undermining the founding principle of the UN charter and realigning the world order towards the unilateral right of the US to attack any country it deems a threat to its national security. International law has already reverted to the right of conquest by the powerful and historically speaking we're back at that moment when Hitler's troops descended on Poland in response to Polish 'terror' attacks. Unfortunately this time around it's the democratic powers that are the aggressor.

Australian troops may well have fired the first shots in this war of conquest and as a nation we are complicit in the subsequent slaughter of upwards of 10 000 innocents and perhaps 50 000 largely teenage conscripts in Saddam's army not to mention the ongoing hostilities. Add to that the dreadful torture scandals that include sexual assaults against Iraqi children then I think it's obvious that our Churchillian leaders have not opted for a 'soft landing' as far as a response to the energy problem goes. This oil war is apparently the first campaign in a global war that will last 30 years unless the Chinese or Russians finally say enough is enough. If it gets seriously out of control, and that is the nature of total war, then it could all be over rather quickly as we finally make good on the promise of mutually assured destruction.

The US is being run into the ground economically with gigantic tax cuts for the wealthy and an unprecedented attack on the new deal coupled with a free for all spending spree on big business and the military. The Bush admin seems to be cutting the middle classes loose, and why not? They have an unsustainable lifestyle anyway once peak oil hits.

There are a lot of scared and angry yanks on the net who see their nation falling towards a totalitarian order, the legal precedents are already in place and all that's required is a historical trigger like oil depletion. In my opinion totalitarian war and economic collapse are the leading contenders for how we respond to oil depletion, and we're already at war.

Then of course you have all the other disasters piling on top of oil wars and economic collapse.

For my part I think it's a good thing that one way or another we're going to be forced to deal with our runaway consumption of fossil fuels sooner rather than later as the oil economy that feeds globalisation, gross overpopulation, its wholesale destruction of the biosphere and the catastrophe of global warming is obviously completely unsustainable, in fact it's a deferred death wish for the next generation. So that's a plus. Unfortunately oil depletion means that nations like China are looking to seriously develop their already huge use of coal for power generation. This energy transition is not going to be smooth but then as one Aussie philosopher of sorts once said "life wasn't meant to be easy".

Another plus is that we're also going to be forced to reinvent our ways of life towards a more frugal, localised community based arrangement, which is good if you've grown up utterly alienated by our materialist, self-obsessed and heavily regimented consumer society. Our children's children may yet have something to thank us for.

First up though public awareness of peak oil needs to grow, and I think we need to ditch our war criminal PM, opt for international cooperation in what is a global problem and face it honestly and with some degree of intelligence. Unfortunately history shows us that humanity is generally rather stupid when it comes to thinking rationally for the long term. Maybe we can surprise our future historians and turn a really stupid mistake around in time to avert their extinction. After all, if we really wanted to we could already have genetically engineered flying pigs.

add your comments


How Dr Strangelove learned to stop worrying and love "the end of oil"
by The end is nigh! Saturday August 14, 2004 at 11:36 PM

Oh suddenly Dr Strangelove gives a shit about Iraq! His last contribution on this topic he explained that "I only care about myself and my family". We have posted a shit load of articles, facts, figures explaining that the Gulf War was about taking Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil off the market in order to raise the price. You have ignored that along with all our other arguments in favour of writing these stupid, unsubstantiated crap and distortions of the debate.

Dr Strangelove's however, takes the cake with his insane nihilistic rantings (sorry Sheila - but your opportunistic Hansonite racism just doesn't compare). Forget decentralised green technology! Lets create a new Dark Ages and our children will thank us when they are living in a hovel working the fields 16 hours a day. The End is nigh.. BRING IT ON!

add your comments


Ms Newman
by Simon Sunday August 15, 2004 at 12:03 AM



I am surprised at you, you come back time and again to shine some light amongst the gloom, these dead heads are not here to make points they are here to break points.
They cannot agree amongst themselves let alone read a study or allocate time for thought…isnt it is obvious? before they see the end of the oil based civilization, That civilization must end.

add your comments


Dinosaurs and Cabbage!
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 12:53 AM

thanks for the "explanation", simon.

'preciate it!

================================
About 80 miles off of the coast of Louisiana lies a mostly submerged mountain, the top of which is known as Eugene Island. The portion underwater is an eerie-looking, sloping tower jutting up from the depths of the Gulf of Mexico, with deep fissures and perpendicular faults which spontaneously spew natural gas. A significant reservoir of crude oil was discovered nearby in the late '60s, and by 1970, a platform named Eugene 330 was busily producing about 15,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil.

By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
======================================

Related links:

Gas Origin Theories To Be Studied
http://www.aapg.org/explorer/2002/11nov/abiogenic.cfm
The Mystery Of Eugene Island 330
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf124/sf124p10.htm
Odd Reservoir Off Louisiana Prods Oil Experts To Seek A Deeper Meaning
http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm
Fuel's Paradise
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.07/gold_pr.html

(nb: Gold stole "his" theory from Russian scientists)

==================================
Dedication:

In the first instance, the articles on this site are dedicated to the memory of Nikolai Alexandrovich Kudryavtsev, who first enunciated in 1951(1) what has become the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins. After Kudryavtsev, all the rest followed.
Secondly, these articles are dedicated generally to the many geologists, geochemists, geophysicists, and petroleum engineers of the former U.S.S.R. who, during the past half century, developed modern petroleum science.

**** By doing so, they raised their country from being, in 1946, a relatively petroleum-poor one, to the greatest petroleum producing and exporting nation in the world today. ****

These articles are dedicated specifically to the late Academician Emmanuil Bogdanovich Chekaliuk, the greatest statistical thermodynamicist ever to have turned his formidable intellect to the problem of petroleum genesis. In the Summer of 1976, during the depths of the cold war and at immeasurable hazard, Academician Chekaliuk chose to respond, across a gulf of political hostility, to an unsolicited letter from an unknown American chief executive officer of a petroleum company headquartered in Houston, Texas. Thenafter and for almost fifteen years, Academician Chekaliuk was my teacher, my collaborator, and my friend. [JFK]

(1). Kudryavtsev, N. A. (1951) Petroleum Economy [Neftianoye Khozyaistvo] 9, 17-29.
=====================================
© 1996-1999,2000-2004.
J. F. Kenney
http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm

add your comments


How Dr Strangelove learned to stop worrying and love "the end of oil"
by Dr Strangelove Sunday August 15, 2004 at 02:44 AM

How Dr Strangelove learned to stop worrying and love "the end of oil" - do you understand irony? You make my case beautifully, perhaps you should see the movie, one of the most eloquent anti-war statements in the history of American film.

"We have posted a shit load of articles, facts, figures explaining" your rather absurd contention that commercial desires to raise the stock valuations of corporate oil companies along with the profits of nations such as Iran have led to the US bankrolling a major war of aggression in the heart of the Middle East spanning 13 years and threatening to ignite WW3. I have ignored that along with all your other pseudo arguments because I simply find no merit in your overexcited rantings. Especially your grasping at the straw of abiotic oil, an abiogenesis that failed to stop the Soviet Union peaking and economically collapsing nor has it reversed the US peak in 1970. For abiogenesis to be a renewable energy source it would need to replenish the world's oil reserves at the rate of 80mb/d just to hold us at current consumption. It is a pointless red herring thrown into the debate by people like yourself who are either fearfully confused or disingenuously using the old bait and switch to muddy the waters and confuse others.

Peak oil deals with current supply and the rundown of reserves irrespective of whether those reserves are constantly replenished over millions of years or not. Peak oil is also a possibility, not a fact but a geological prediction, it remains to be proven after the fact. It is a potential problem which if true has some gigantic consequences for the human species. You sound to me like a frightened and confused child incapable of contemplating the possibility of your own demise and the means by which it may be coming about. Which is fair enough, since if this energy problem turns out for the worse then we are all lambs to the slaughter, you, your family and everyone else in this world.

Your interpretation of the consequences of peak oil is interesting though, if somewhat extreme. You see a new "Dark Ages and our children will thank us when they are living in a hovel working the fields 16 hours a day. The End is nigh". I agree with you that such an outcome is a possibility, and as the dark ages and Mediaeval orders had their Lords and serfs so too our future may be ruled by a globally dispersed capitalist and totalitarian feudalism.

But that's an extreme scenario. I am hopeful that we'll be able to manage the disaster in a much more civilised manner. But then if it doesn't turn out that way who are we to complain as the majority of the world's population already lives in a hovel working the fields 16 hours a day. Our modern lifestyles are an abomination founded on the theft of the vast petrochemical resources of the globe for the benefit of a wealthy few. As those resources deplete so does our wealth, and it seems highly likely to me that what remains of our wealth will be increasingly concentrated in those powers that need it to maintain their technological mastery while the rest of us will be free to join our cousins in the third world.

I am in no way advocating that as a good outcome, I'm just following the logic of energy depletion and geopolitical power plays. Sometimes life can be cruel no matter how much you wish it weren't so, and sometimes it can surprise you. I do hope we can manage this historical transition for the good of all beings and that future humanity can look back on the age of oil and understand where we went wrong. And all we really have is hope don't you think?

add your comments


Dinosaurs and Cabbage!
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 03:05 AM

bombast isn't science - sorry!
---------------------------------------



================================
About 80 miles off of the coast of Louisiana lies a mostly submerged mountain, the top of which is known as Eugene Island. The portion underwater is an eerie-looking, sloping tower jutting up from the depths of the Gulf of Mexico, with deep fissures and perpendicular faults which spontaneously spew natural gas. A significant reservoir of crude oil was discovered nearby in the late '60s, and by 1970, a platform named Eugene 330 was busily producing about 15,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil.

By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
======================================

Related links:

Gas Origin Theories To Be Studied
http://www.aapg.org/explorer/2002/11nov/abiogenic.cfm
The Mystery Of Eugene Island 330
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf124/sf124p10.htm
Odd Reservoir Off Louisiana Prods Oil Experts To Seek A Deeper Meaning
http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm
Fuel's Paradise
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.07/gold_pr.html

(nb: Gold stole "his" theory from Russian scientists)

==================================
Dedication:

In the first instance, the articles on this site are dedicated to the memory of Nikolai Alexandrovich Kudryavtsev, who first enunciated in 1951(1) what has become the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins. After Kudryavtsev, all the rest followed.
Secondly, these articles are dedicated generally to the many geologists, geochemists, geophysicists, and petroleum engineers of the former U.S.S.R. who, during the past half century, developed modern petroleum science.

**** By doing so, they raised their country from being, in 1946, a relatively petroleum-poor one, to the greatest petroleum producing and exporting nation in the world today. ****

These articles are dedicated specifically to the late Academician Emmanuil Bogdanovich Chekaliuk, the greatest statistical thermodynamicist ever to have turned his formidable intellect to the problem of petroleum genesis. In the Summer of 1976, during the depths of the cold war and at immeasurable hazard, Academician Chekaliuk chose to respond, across a gulf of political hostility, to an unsolicited letter from an unknown American chief executive officer of a petroleum company headquartered in Houston, Texas. Thenafter and for almost fifteen years, Academician Chekaliuk was my teacher, my collaborator, and my friend. [JFK]

(1). Kudryavtsev, N. A. (1951) Petroleum Economy [Neftianoye Khozyaistvo] 9, 17-29.
=====================================
© 1996-1999,2000-2004.
J. F. Kenney
http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm

add your comments


The Fear of Peak
by Dr Strangelove Sunday August 15, 2004 at 03:27 AM

"bombast isn't science - sorry!"

Absolutely correct, and you are fading away, bombastically even. But I am genuinely interested in why you get so reactionary about any discussion of peak oil. Your childish invective, the repetitive cut and paste of reams of other people's text without interpretation and where a simple link would suffice, your latent fear. Where does it all come from?

I can understand it of course, most people tend to react to news that threatens their everyday routines with a mixture of fear, rejection, resentment and sometimes hostility.

It remains that what we are discussing here is simply a possibility and you would make your contra arguments much easier to bear if you could control yourself a bit more and not take it all so personally.

So my hypothetical question to you is: If peak oil turns out to be true what do you fear most as far as its possible consequences are concerned? What is it that you fear in this discussion?

add your comments


Why do I react against marketing lies, by golly?
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 03:47 AM

Dinosaurs and Cabbage!

================================
About 80 miles off of the coast of Louisiana lies a mostly submerged mountain, the top of which is known as Eugene Island. The portion underwater is an eerie-looking, sloping tower jutting up from the depths of the Gulf of Mexico, with deep fissures and perpendicular faults which spontaneously spew natural gas. A significant reservoir of crude oil was discovered nearby in the late '60s, and by 1970, a platform named Eugene 330 was busily producing about 15,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil.

By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
======================================

Related links:

Gas Origin Theories To Be Studied
http://www.aapg.org/explorer/2002/11nov/abiogenic.cfm
The Mystery Of Eugene Island 330
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf124/sf124p10.htm
Odd Reservoir Off Louisiana Prods Oil Experts To Seek A Deeper Meaning
http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm
Fuel's Paradise
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.07/gold_pr.html

(nb: Gold stole "his" theory from Russian scientists)

==================================
Dedication:

In the first instance, the articles on this site are dedicated to the memory of Nikolai Alexandrovich Kudryavtsev, who first enunciated in 1951(1) what has become the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins. After Kudryavtsev, all the rest followed.
Secondly, these articles are dedicated generally to the many geologists, geochemists, geophysicists, and petroleum engineers of the former U.S.S.R. who, during the past half century, developed modern petroleum science.

**** By doing so, they raised their country from being, in 1946, a relatively petroleum-poor one, to the greatest petroleum producing and exporting nation in the world today. ****

These articles are dedicated specifically to the late Academician Emmanuil Bogdanovich Chekaliuk, the greatest statistical thermodynamicist ever to have turned his formidable intellect to the problem of petroleum genesis. In the Summer of 1976, during the depths of the cold war and at immeasurable hazard, Academician Chekaliuk chose to respond, across a gulf of political hostility, to an unsolicited letter from an unknown American chief executive officer of a petroleum company headquartered in Houston, Texas. Thenafter and for almost fifteen years, Academician Chekaliuk was my teacher, my collaborator, and my friend. [JFK]

(1). Kudryavtsev, N. A. (1951) Petroleum Economy [Neftianoye Khozyaistvo] 9, 17-29.
=====================================
© 1996-1999,2000-2004.
J. F. Kenney
http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm

are you ready to offer an explanation yet?

add your comments


The Fear of Peak
by Dr Strangelove Sunday August 15, 2004 at 04:02 AM

"are you ready to offer an explanation yet?"

An explanation of what?

All you do is post the same stuff on abiotic oil without any interpretation. What is it about abiogenesis that you think is going to allow the world's economies to continue to burn oil at today's gigantic rates and also provide for an exponential growth in supply of around 3% per annum? That is what it would take to maintain the status quo of your everyday world.

Why are you clinging to this geological theory? How does it assuage your fears for the future? I'm actually quite interested as it seems utterly irrelevant to the draw down of reserves we're currently going through and the inevitability of a rollover in demand and supply.

add your comments


the explananda, AGAIN!
by your obsession with deceit Sunday August 15, 2004 at 05:44 AM

Dinosaurs and Cabbage!

================================
About 80 miles off of the coast of Louisiana lies a mostly submerged mountain, the top of which is known as Eugene Island. The portion underwater is an eerie-looking, sloping tower jutting up from the depths of the Gulf of Mexico, with deep fissures and perpendicular faults which spontaneously spew natural gas. A significant reservoir of crude oil was discovered nearby in the late '60s, and by 1970, a platform named Eugene 330 was busily producing about 15,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil.

By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
======================================

Related links:

Gas Origin Theories To Be Studied
http://www.aapg.org/explorer/2002/11nov/abiogenic.cfm
The Mystery Of Eugene Island 330
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf124/sf124p10.htm
Odd Reservoir Off Louisiana Prods Oil Experts To Seek A Deeper Meaning
http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm
Fuel's Paradise
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.07/gold_pr.html
===================================

"Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day"

"the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s."

"a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil"

"Similar RESULTS were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar RESULTS were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar RESULTS were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East"

=======================

Are you ready to try your hand at explaining the phenomena?

add your comments


expontential (supply?) ipse dixit
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 05:46 AM

and you will need to substantiate and reference every one of your claims in future, strangey.

add your comments


Oversupplied? !
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 06:27 AM

Iraq Halts Oil Exports from Main Pipeline
Reuters

Saturdayday 14 August 2004

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Authorities have halted oil export flows from the main pipeline in southern Iraq after intelligence showed a rebel militia could strike infrastructure, an oil official said Saturday.

The shutdown kept loadings at southern oil terminals at half their normal level, undermining the government's effort to raise revenue as oil prices hit record highs, partly in response to the instability in Iraq.

``The situation in Basra is bad. Management ordered the pipeline shut late yesterday,'' said the South Oil Company official, who declined to be named.

``Very few people showed up to work again today. The feeling is it is not wise to challenge Sadr's followers.''

He was referring to the uprising led by anti U.S.-cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, whose Mehdi Army militia is fighting U.S-led forces in central and southern Iraq.

The Mehdi Army has vowed to attack oil facilities in response to a U.S. offensive on Muslim Shi'ite city of Najaf.

The instability and damage to the main export pipeline in the south from sabotage has disrupted Iraq's oil exports through the past five days.

Only the tanker Antonius was loading Saturday at 864,000 barrels per day (bpd) from platform number two at the Basra terminal, formerly known as Mina al-Bakr.

Flows to offshore terminals, which account for all of Iraq's exports, were running through another smaller pipeline at a rate of one million barrels per day. The larger pipeline has a capacity of 1.5 million bpd.

News that Iraq have stopped oil exports from the key southern pipeline came as Iran said that global markets were OVERSUPPLIED by 2.8 million bpd of crude and that there was no reason for OPEC to raise production to cool down sizzling oil prices. [!]

U.S. benchmark crude prices soared to yet another record of $46.65 a barrel Friday following news of a BLAST AT the Whiting, INDIANA REFINERY [!], and on fears about possible unrest in OPEC producer Venezuela during this weekend's referendum on the rule of President Hugo Chavez.

With the latest bullish news from the Middle East, oil analysts now expect prices to soon strike $47 a barrel and head for $50.
http://truthout.org/docs_04/081504Z.shtml

add your comments


Black Gold that is
by Texas T Sunday August 15, 2004 at 01:55 PM

While I'm open minded about biogenic/abiogenic origin of oil for the time being I'll offer a scenario for the "recharge" anomaly in the Louisiana case.

Consider the location; Gulf of Mexico, a natural sedimentary basin, next to Texas. It is an oilfield rich region.

One possibility could be that if the oil is biogenic then it was also within the broader geological context of the Gulf of Mexico. Perhaps the original was deposit was depleted but also happened to be in close proximity to another deposit. If the oil is under pressure it could work its way into an area of lower pressure e.g. the "hole" that had been left by the extraction of the Louisiana oilfield. Similar to the effect when a small hole develops in a dam wall or dyke. The movement of the oil under pressure could also help to breech the "skin" that separates the two reserves. It may also be something like an osmotic effect.

Anyway, as you can see, the "recharge" phenomena is not beyond the realm of possibility even if the oil is biogenic in origin.

add your comments


End of oil?
by Simon Sunday August 15, 2004 at 02:34 PM

Oil is held and contained beneath the ground in sand stone seams deep in the crust, made from deposits of cabbage …plankton or just dead stuff, in some places there is none but in others there’s lots and lots but between them there is not, the ground squeezes and like tooth paste the tubes split…as you remove the pressure from one well the neighboring well… well just fills the void created until its resources are wasted…then we pump in steam.
Is the anti peak oil debate suggesting that oil is a non-depleting resource…that we have endless supplies on tap…are they for real?

add your comments


Oversupplied !
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 02:41 PM

it's a weak explanation and a very unlikely co-incidence to be occurring in wells all over the world:

"We just happend to be sitting next to **another** vast underground reservoir of cabbage and dinosaur residues - and the new reservoir is leaking into our old one!! Lo! "

Who needs slant drilling?

But at least you tried

add your comments


Keeping it quiet?
by Texas Tea Sunday August 15, 2004 at 02:50 PM

I haven't heard about it happening all over the world. Where did you hear that?

add your comments


Oversupplied !
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 03:00 PM

Gee - Where did you hear that?

=========================
By the late '80s, the platform's production had slipped to less than 4,000 barrels per day, and was considered pumped out. Done. Suddenly, in 1990, production soared back to 15,000 barrels a day, and the reserves which had been estimated at 60 million barrels in the '70s, were recalculated at 400 million barrels. Interestingly, the measured geological age of the new oil was quantifiably different than the oil pumped in the '70s.

Analysis of seismic recordings revealed the presence of a "deep fault" at the base of the Eugene Island reservoir which was gushing up a river of oil from some deeper and previously unknown source.

Similar results were seen at other Gulf of Mexico oil wells. Similar results were found in the Cook Inlet oil fields in Alaska. Similar results were found in oil fields in Uzbekistan. Similarly in the Middle East, where oil exploration and extraction have been underway for at least the last 20 years, KNOWN RESERVES HAVE DOUBLED. Currently there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 680 billion barrels of Middle East reserve oil.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
======================================

Related links:

Gas Origin Theories To Be Studied
http://www.aapg.org/explorer/2002/11nov/abiogenic.cfm
The Mystery Of Eugene Island 330
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf124/sf124p10.htm
Odd Reservoir Off Louisiana Prods Oil Experts To Seek A Deeper Meaning
http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm
Fuel's Paradise
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.07/gold_pr.html
====================================
(as posted above three times)

>>> "Where did you hear that?" <<<

add your comments


Ipse-Dixit for Enron
by The Peak Electricity Scam Sunday August 15, 2004 at 03:01 PM

Is slimey simon suggesting that we take his word as gospel?

GET REAL!

add your comments


Proof?
by Texas Tea Sunday August 15, 2004 at 03:23 PM

Theory. That is all there is at the moment by admission of the scientists themselves. Nothing I would class as a definitive conclusion as yet. Either explanation may yet turn out to be right. In the absence of conclusive evidence I find the certainty declared by proponents of each case to be disconcerting.

I read nothing in the article to discount the possibilty that "recharge" is an effect of porosity in the earths crust. The existence of a "recharge" effect neither precludes biogenic origin nor proves abiogenesis.

add your comments


Frightened Anti-Peak Trolls
by Dr Strangelove Sunday August 15, 2004 at 03:55 PM

"Is the anti peak oil debate suggesting that oil is a non-depleting resource…that we have endless supplies on tap…are they for real?"

Hi Simon,

yes they are for real but they are trolls. If you go with their logic it just fragments and reinvents itself then baits you with insults to change the topic because it is driven by their fear of change rather than any reasoned debate. Then they just repeat their claims and start the troll all over again. It's a common conservative debating technique, it seems to come naturally to frightened people and there will be more of them as the oil problem progresses over the next 5 years and beyond.

Us humans are generally driven by affect rather than reason, or more to the point we rationalise our feelings and use double think to resolve the logical inconsistencies. When entrenched there is no way to reason with this form of thinking as it is based solely on a wishful belief that sets itself in opposition to anything that threatens the security of that belief.

The foundation of that belief is simply the belief in one's own righteousness, its fragmented truth is what upholds it and no doubt can be allowed to enter into it, otherwise it would collapse under the weight of its illogicality. It can't stand still for one moment. Politicians understand this either implicitly or, in the case of US conservatives, they fund think tanks that standardise the procedure for framing debates on any number of issues. Goebbels was an evil genius as far as propaganda theory goes and remains an important influence on conservative thinking, just ask Karl Rove.

So for our trolls peak oil becomes a global corporate and big government conspiracy to bump the oil price up, and abiogenesis replenishes our oil supply at the rate of over 13 billion litres a day and growing - no problem then. Everything's fine and everydayness will keep on keeping on until global warming overwhelms the biosphere. But then that's probably just more corporate inspired eco-propaganda, isn't that right ***?

I actually enjoy debating with these people, I just go with their logic til it falls apart and pity them rather than react to their inevitable fallback position which is to insult you. For some of them it's just a game, they are life's devil's advocates and a useful tool for honing your own debating techniques.

Yet I still think they are useful for discussing peak oil, so long as we don't allow them to drag the discussion down into flame bait and off topic. And here we are, 30 something posts into a report of a state government sponsored conference on the coming oil crisis. The public awareness of peak oil is growing with ABC radio discussing Hubbert's bell curve, Anderson proclaiming the end of the era of cheap oil, the WA govt announcing billions of dollars worth of infrastructure projects to address the problem and consumers getting worried about $1+ petrol as oil surges towards $US50bbl due to regional supply problems that seem to be exacerbated by a structural lack of spare capacity.

Peak oil is not a fact, it's a possibility that will reveal itself in hindsight in a few years from now. We should expect more strident flat earth trolls as the problem progresses and perhaps we should thank them for raising the noise level of the debate for us. The more people discussing the problem the better, does it matter if some of them are frightened trolls?

add your comments


Obseesive Peak Marketing Liars
by The Peak Electricity Scam (this is marketing) Sunday August 15, 2004 at 05:28 PM

Is slimey simon suggesting that we take his word as gospel?

GET REAL!
==================================

More Enron Tapes, More Gloating

(CBS) The Department of Justice reportedly has thousands of hours of Enron employees recorded during the West Coast power crisis. Now, some in Congress want all the tapes released.

"I want to make sure no federal agency suppresses this information," says U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash. "Justice needs to be served."

After CBS broadcast the voices of Enron energy traders gloating over the crisis they helped create, more tapes were released.

In one tape, an employee says, "You gotta think the economy is going to fucking get crushed, man. This is like a recession waiting to fucking happen."

The tapes show Enron tried to bring California to its knees.

Elsewhere on the tapes, another employee says, "This is where California breaks."

"Yeah, it sure does man," says another.

And they proposed to do that by exporting energy out of the state so the company could drive up prices even more.

"What we need to do is to help in the cause of, ah, downfall of California," an employee is heard saying on the tapes. "You guys need to pull your megawatts out of California on a daily basis."

"They're on the ropes today," says another employee. "I exported like a fucking 400 megs."

"Wow,'' says another employee, "fuck 'em, right!"

Traders can be heard manipulating the market, using now-infamous schemes with names like death star, ricochet and fat boy.

One employee is heard asking, "You want to do some fat boys or, or whatever, man, you know, take advantage of it."

In fat boy, Enron traders used fake power sales to hide megawatts, shrinking the supply of energy and driving up prices. They also used the oldest trick in the book: LIES.

"It's called lies. It's all how well you can weave these lies together, Shari, alright, so," an employee is heard saying.

The other employee says, "I feel like I'm being corrupted now."

The first employee adds, "No, this is marketing,"

The tapes could affect dozens of cases already filed against the company by California Attorney General Bill Lockyer.

"If they're ever heard by a jury, they're going to string them up," says Lockyer.

After hearing the tapes, the state's two U.S. senators demanded an immediate $8.9 billion refund.

At a recent hearing Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif. said, "All I can tell you is you have to listen out there to what's happening to ordinary people who you are responsible to help through this."

http://cbs5.com/news/local/2004/06/08/More_Enron_Tapes,_More_Gloating.html
06-08-2004

add your comments


As Promised: Maddison's Stats & other stuff
by Sheila N Monday August 16, 2004 at 01:52 AM

Greetings, Simon, Dr Strangelove, and the Trolls!

We meet again. Thanks for the encouraging words, Strangelove and Simon, and thanks, Trolls, for the constant opportunity to repost your learning difficulties provide. The below is from a post to an Australian Academy of Science Forum on Population.

Although Prof Castles (an economist) comes pretty much from the Troll perspective, it will probably send the Trolls to sleep (and possibly everyone else) but it contains some references and figures.

I'm sorry if the graphs don't come out; they are the same as the ones in Chap 7 of my thesis mentioned in a previous post.


Response by Sheila Newman to
Ian Castles?s post of Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:38 am
Post subject: Resources and politics Reply with quote


Professor Castles, in his earlier contributions to the discussions started off by Peter North, about where we might get the energy to pursue the goal of economic growth, leaned toward ?optimism? on the outlook for economic growth. He stated that he was inclined to attribute this optimism to a 1963 American study by Chandler and Morse. This study had led him to write the following for an Australian Treasury Report in 1973, "As an historical fact, the long-term trend has been for the cost of mineral inputs to DECLINE as a proportion of total production costs.?

[Please excuse my use of upper case letters; it is because of the problems in cutting and pasting italics and bold and other formatting and lack of time to convert these.]

I take it that by ?minerals? Dr Castles is referring to fossil fuel energy, primarily oil.
I interpret his statement that the ?long-term trend has been for the COST of mineral inputs to decline as a proportion of total production costs? refers to the MONETARY COST rather than the THERMODYNAMIC COST of total production.

Professor Castles then adds, ?Numerous studies of the available statistical data, spanning more than a century, have demonstrated that the tendency during this phase of unprecedented growth in the world economy and in the use of minerals has not been towards scarcity but towards abundance.?

From the rest of his statement I understand that he is saying that past trends have indicated that fossil fuel energy [= minerals] was increasingly abundant. From his expressed optimism about the future I assume that he is basing his optimism on an expectation that past trends will persist.

I have no quarrel with either of these statements up to the dates of both studies. Neither, I expect, would Ehrlich.

From reading contributions by Professor Castles on the subject of the IPCC, to various publications, such as Quadrant Magazine, I noted that he cited a particular set of statistics as more reliable than those used by the IPCC. These stats were from Angus Maddison, Monitoring the World Economy 1820-1992, OECD, Paris, 2000. I purchased a copy and it is indeed a treasure trove! I use it now because I know that Professor Castles finds its economic data far more reliable than some other kinds. Maddison uses the concept of ?purchasing power? to estimate economic growth.

Maddison divides world per capita economic growth (which he breaks down into a variety of regions) into five phases between 1820 and 1992.

Economic growth was the greatest it had ever been between 1950 and 1973, coinciding with massive expansion of the petroleum based economy.

The decline of the rate of economic growth coincided with the first and second oil shocks (approx 1973 and 1980). After 1973 per capita economic growth never recovered and unevenness of growth has increased.

There are numerous economic theories to explain what happened. Most rely on the notion that superior technology made it possible to decouple production more and more from fossil fuel resources.

Some dissenting theories surmise that the first world cornered wealth and used it to purchase better quality petroleum fuel at lower real prices. [C.J. Cleveland, R.K. Kaufmann, D.I. Stern, "Aggregation and the role of energy in the economy," Ecological Economics 32 (2000) 301 317, http://www.dieoff.org/cleveland.pdf. Their (fascinating) work has been criticised in an unpublished document for a circularity of definition of economic indicators of fuel quality and for the lack of comparability of international data used in some graphs.]. This study suffers from failure to standardise monetary values.

How did the first world manage to purchase such high quality oil cheaply?

An explanation which the Left is very partial to, is that they were able to gouge cheap deals from parts of the world where the economies were too unsophisticated to demand higher prices.

A more sophisticated analysis suggests that many of these economies became the captives of development financiers and technicians who failed to communicate their skills or appropriate technologies, destroyed viable local cultures, and interfered (wittingly and unwittingly but certainly witlessly) with local systems for balancing population with local resources, at least partly causing massive population growth. (Abernethy, for instance.)

The internationalisation of small local economies accompanied by breakdown of their land-use planning and population planning systems (such as those of Pacific Islanders) caused depletion of their resources, including soil vitality, through export of commodities at the same time as it blew out their populations by commodifying land and assigning new gender, settlement, and birth control systems, under an ideology of economic growth. Note that the Easter Island was the exception to a rule that saw stable populations and societies over many centuries in many Polynesian and Micronesian societies.

(Note also that Australia ? that big Pacific largely desert island - is more and more in this position of a commodity dependent economy with a rapidly increasing population which is being skilled from overseas.)

Due to these and similar factors, the explanation goes, poor commodity dependent economies became mired in debt to the first world economies, or their leaders cornered what wealth their oil reserves brought and used it to enter a first world international coterie (e.g. Saudi Arabia). An exception might be, for example, Brunei.

It was really the English speaking settlement countries like the USA, Australia, Canada and New Zealand that may have behaved most in this way.

Western Europe behaved somewhat differently. It reacted to the first oil shock as if this was a practice for the first real oil shortage and they may still have perceived that this was the beginning of the ?great draw down?. Certainly when I was in France in 1973 the government behaved as if the end of oil was nigh. We need to realise that different factors prevailed there; W. Europe had experienced oil shortages during the war and again during the Suez Canal crisis. Not being a pioneering culture formed on the expectation of windfalls, Western European culture includes safefty valves which US, Australian and NZ cultures have never really come to terms with. (Let us leave the UK out of this; defining its post war culture is too complex, but has to do with long term use of coal and long lasting colonial resources access.) Whitlam also behaved as if the end of oil was nigh, but the Australian body politic was quickly convinced otherwise.

Such socio-economic explanations aside, demographic records combined with historical geological records of oil exploration and extraction show that growth in petroleum energy draw down began to decrease PER CAPITA globally shortly after 1978 and this was exacerbated by a fall in oil extracted around 1980. Oil extraction rose again in the 1990s but has not kept up with population growth. See various graphs, such as those by Jean LaHerrčre's graphs. Read also demographic anthropologist, Abernethy?s, recent articles on fertility and fossil fuel.


Is Professor Castles actually expressing some doubt that fossil fuel is a factor in economic growth? "As an historical fact, the long-term trend has been for the cost of mineral inputs to DECLINE as a proportion of total production costs.? ?Numerous studies of the available statistical data, spanning more than a century, have demonstrated that the tendency during this phase of unprecedented growth in the world economy and in the use of minerals has not been towards scarcity but towards abundance.? These statements do not appear to challenge the thermodynamic importance of fossil fuel ? mainly petroleum, one would assume. What they seem to imply is that Professor Castles believes that the growth in petroleum production is continuing now as it did in the thirty years up to the first world war, and going back to its first commercialisation.

AND HE IS RIGHT! As far as we know petroleum production is still growing.

The implication in Castles?s statements is also that economic growth is preceding apace with growth in oil extraction, since he bases his argument on these past trends when the two went together.

We know, however that world economic growth has not kept pace with growth in oil extraction. Maddison?s statistics show that world economic growth as measured by purchasing power has declined since 1973.

Professor Castles probably doesn?t believe that economic growth is preceding apace, since he has read Maddison, whose statistics show that world economic growth as measured by purchasing power has declined since 1973. Since Maddison?s statistics correlate purchasing power with population growth, I will ask Professor Castles here to give us his explanation for why per capita purchasing power has declined.

The explanation which I offer is that population growth has outpaced oil extraction growth. That is why purchasing power overall has declined although growth in oil extraction has continued to increase, albeit less reliably, with more oil exploration companies finding less oil annually, using increasingly costly technology in both monetary and thermodynamic terms.

What else could explain the coincidence? Yes, technology has improved to a limited degree our capacity to take advantage of thermodynamics. My guess, though, is that technology hasn?t improved enough to offset the losses in world per-capita petroleum energy availability terms due to world population growth and the statistically likely prior discovery of most of the largest and most accessible reserves, plus the rising monetary and thermodynamic cost of exploration and extraction along with the smaller margin for profit on a tightly managed world market. My guess is based on the curves for world population growth and for oil and gas petroleum extraction yields, plus technical information about exploration and production. (See Jean La Herrere again, or Campbell ?#).


All graphs which I have seen and made comparing population growth with hydrocarbon production (oil and gas) more or less follow Maddison?s figures for world economic growth, and indicate that there has been a decline in economic growth after the first and second oil shocks, world wide.

I admit that some first world countries appeared to experience forms of recovery of economic growth between these times. Overseas borrowing, superior currencies, access to cheap labor in ?developing? countries and the rate of population growth in the first world country also must be taken into account. For instance, Western Europe per capita economic growth appeared to recover to some degree, but this was at the same time as population growth slowed. In Western English speaking countries where economic growth appeared to recover, such as the US, Australia, Canada and NZ, those national economies relied on debt to fuel their continuing expansion and rapid population growth. Finally, it also does seems likely that the exploitation of cheap labor in the third world, to which much manufacturing was exported, and the ability to outbid developing countries for fossil fuel, thus slowing their economic growth, also helped to offset actual reductions in hydrocarbon energy use. Thus, even though global oil production was outstripped by human population growth, so that the amount of hydrocarbon energy per capita stopped growing around the mid 1970s and began to fall from about 1980, in some countries, per capita hydrocarbon consumption increased rapidly after a couple of massive interruptions. See, for instance LaHerrere?s graphs.?.## in ? This is also what happened with per capita economic growth according to Maddison?s figures.

For my own graphs I have used petroleum consumption data from BP historical energy stats. Compare France, which did not borrow to sustain petroleum energy fed growth, with Australia, which did in the graphs entitled ?France: Total Oil consumption and total population growth 1965-1997 and Australia: Total Oil consumption and total population 1965-1997, which are in Chapter 7 of The Growth Lobby and its Absence at http://www.alphalink.com.au/~smnaesp/populationspeculation.htm or I can forward these to you by email, since this forum doesn?t appear to support graphs.









The point I am making here is that, overall, economic growth followed the global per capita availability of oil. Even though some countries appeared to partially recover, Maddison does not show evidence anywhere that economic growth has ever gone as fast, nor been as sustained, as in the thirty post war years prior to the first oil shock.

PREDICTING ECONOMIC GROWTH IN GLOBAL WARMING

By the way, looking at Maddison and Laherrere I am inclined to agree with you that if economic growth went ahead according to the trends in Maddison, it would not reach the heights relied upon for the IPCC scenario.

That strikes me as a problem associated with economic measurement tools and what they purport to measure. As such it is not a thermodynamic measurement problem which scientists are responsible for, since they are merely taking advice from economists. Irritation with the IPCC should perhaps be directed at fellow economists who use GDP rather than Maddison?s purchasing power method as an indicator of the size of economies. In fact trends in energy use as shown by Laherrere and others would be more relevant to predict future trends in CO2 emissions, one would think. It would also follow that they would probably be more relevant for predicting economic growth than whatever method has been used by IPCC economists.

Whilst Prof Castles?s assertions about economic growth and the IPCC based on Maddison seem reasonable to me, Maddison?s measurement indicators seem to me to tend to undermine Castles?s argument to Peter North about how availability of ?minerals? (by which I have assumed he means ?energy? (largely petroleum energy, since that is the major world fuel) has not affected economic growth.

DOES MONEY STAND FOR ANYTHING IN THERMODYNAMIC TERMS?

Professor Castles also wrote:

"As an historical fact, the long-term trend has been for the cost of mineral inputs to DECLINE as a proportion of total production costs.?

At the outset of this email response, I stated that my understanding was that Prof Castles?s was using ?cost? in the statement above, to mean ?monetary? [or purchasing power?] cost?. This brings me to a final question about Prof Castles?s measurement tools, which I find fascinating and know very little about.

I want to ask him if he also intended to suggest that economists believe it is possible to define the availability of energy (?minerals?) by monetary standards. That is, if petroleum energy has remained cheap then availability of petroleum has remained abundant.

If that is the case, then I am not sure of the basis on which economists would accomplish the transition from the question of energy availability (thermodynamics) to the question of monetary cost of energy (some kind of economic theory).

Does Castles, as an economist, mean to imply that there is a measurable correspondence between the value of money and the availability of energy? In fact monetary prices for petroleum did climb steeply after the first oil shock and have never returned to the very low prices pre 1973. Nevertheless they remain comparatively cheap if you live in a country with good purchasing power for US dollars.

So, if energy is cheap if you have US dollars and live in the US then that means that there is a lot of energy. What would that mean if you live in Nigeria and don?t have US dollars? What does World Oil Price mean on a World basis? What IS the value of money on a world basis?

I admit that I haven?t payed enough attention to how money might measure energy. I have been tempted to follow a series of discussions by people who are interested in thermodynamics and energy resources about whether money could be assigned some kind of thermodynamic equivalent, but I have not had the time. Their consensus is that there is no sensible relationship between money and wood, coal, hydrocarbons, or nuclear.

SUMMING UP:

Maddison clearly shows that world economic growth per capita slowed after the oil shock on a long term basis. He alludes to the shock but avoids directly connecting subsequent economic growth decline to the thermodynamics of reduced world hydrocarbon energy consumption per capita combined with increasing populations. My suspicion is that the connection for him was obvious, but that he knew it was ideologically incorrect, economically speaking. (By the way it is less ideologically incorrect to talk about energy and economic growth in France, which has a decent body of literature on oil economics and responses post 1973.)

So, the (thermodynamically speaking) myth that economic growth continued after a blip in 1973 and another in 1978 - 1990 could be explained as due to distribution of oil consumption per capita. The apparent low $ cost might find an explanation in the exchange of undervalued equity - and Australia would be a good case in point.

It does look to me as if Paul Ehrlich was right about oil supply running down relative to population on a global basis. He was right also that petroleum would become more costly to a large proportion of peoples whose currency was virtually worthless and he was right that less oil would be used and that people would suffer because their standard of living would not keep up with population growth. What he didn't anticipate, it would appear, was that the higher financial cost would lead to a restraint in world economic growth, but that some populations, notably the English speaking settler states, would continue to purchase oil and to increase the amount they used overall and per capita and to maintain rapid population growth, without apparently paying much more, giving the illusion of persistant rapid economic growth although less sustained and less rapid. But they would do this by going into debt, by selling off equity, and by commodifying land in tandem with citizenship on the global market, and by keeping the rich happy and corporatising democracy. Although the USA diversified its energy resources, demand for oil still increased.

Countries, like France, which did not borrow and exchange equity, reduced instead their population growth and increased their technological efficiency and their energy resource diversity. Industrial relations and citizenship rights were maintained.

No industrialised country has managed to replace petroleum for its major transportation fuel, but West Europe considerably increased km per litre in its automobiles and has maintained this in comparison to the US and Australia.

Between 1973 and 1992 labor productivity grew much faster in West European countries except Sweden (Maddison p. 79) than in the US and Australia. $ productivity per kilogram of oil equivalent is also far higher in Western Europe than in Australia, Canada, and the US. [I think, but am not sure, this is despite the US diversifying its energy resources more than Australia has done.]

Of course, what the dollars here are actually measuring bears further discussion.

Sheila Newman smnaesp@alphalink.com.au


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The Peak Oil Myth: Ending The Debate
by Michael C. Lynch Monday August 16, 2004 at 03:10 AM

Closed Coffin: Ending the Debate on "The End of Cheap Oil" A commentary Michael C. Lynch, Chief Energy Economist, DRI-WEFA, Inc.

September 2001

The past five years have seen a renewed debate on the issue of oil supply and the possibility of a near-term peak in production and the concomitant adverse economic consequences. A number of articles have stated that discoveries over the past thirty years have been only a fraction of consumption and that according to the Hubbert Curve method, world oil production is close to a peak. What few people realize is that these arguments are based entirely on a very particular technical argument, and recent evidence has highlighted its fallacy.

The greatest attention was achieved by the March 1998 Scientific American article "The End of Cheap Oil" by Jean Laherrere and Colin Campbell, largely due to the extreme nature of their warning -- production peaking within a few years -- and the alleged irrefutability of it. Subsequently, the authors have been very active publicizing their views, including testimony to the British House of Commons, speaking on BBC, and a number of other venues. A few articles in the general press have been at least skeptical, but most of the work refuting their arguments has been treated cautiously and quite a few lay observers have taken their arguments as truth rather than speculation. Critics of these arguments (like myself) have noted that these forecasts have repeatedly proven to be incorrect, including those by Colin Campbell in particular, who as early as 1989 predicted a peak in world oil production for that year. Their rejoinder has been to note correctly that -- past performance is not proof of future performance.

However, to the more explicit charge that their model is mis-specified, the authors have made a more substantive response. The primary flaw in this type of model is the assumption that recoverable petroleum resources are fixed, when the amount of oil which can be recovered depends on both the total amount of oil (a geological factor which is fixed), but also dynamic variables like price, infrastructure, and technology. If the amount of recoverable oil increases, as it has in the past, then the level predicted for peak production must increase and the date pushed further into the future. This has been observed many times from forecasters using this type of model and relying on estimates of ultimately recoverable resources (URR). But Campbell and Laherrere have asserted that their estimate of URR is both highly accurate and stable because of their calculation using field size estimates showing declining discovery size, moving towards an asymptote. Since they have relied heavily on a privately held database, which is unavailable to the general researcher, it has been difficult for critics to respond to this specifically.

The reliance on discovery trends to estimate URR has received similar criticism as the faulty URR estimates, namely that estimates of field size tend to increase over time with improved recovery methods, better examination of seismic data, infill drilling, and so forth. This means that the size of the recent fields is being underestimated compared to older fields, exaggerating the nearness of the asymptote and understating its size. An analogy would be to plant trees over twenty years and note that the size of the most recently planted trees was shrinking, and concluding that timber resources would become scarce. Campbell and Laherrere have argued in response that increases in recovery at existing fields are artifacts of accounting rules (which is only partly true) and that they have overcome this flaw by their reliance on a database whose reserve estimates do not suffer from this bias. Since the estimate of ultimately recoverable resources is based on their field size estimates, the question of field growth becomes central to the entire debate. And their primary line of defense has been that their critics lack access to this database.

Last year, the publication of the USGS's World Petroleum Assessment provided one particularly sharp nail in the coffin of this argument, when (among other things) they examined the development of field size estimates over time using the same proprietary database which Campbell and Laherrere relied on, and concluded that reserve growth from existing fields, although uncertain, would be substantial. They published a mean estimate of 612 billion barrels (nearly 30 years of current consumption), significantly increasing their estimate of the world's URR.

But the final nails seem to be located in this summer's little-noticed announcement by IHS Energy -- the firm whose field database Campbell and Laherrere have utilized -- of estimated discoveries. According to the firm, discoveries in 2000 were 14.3 billion barrels in 2000, a 10% drop from 1999. This has two interesting implications: first, discoveries have risen sharply the past two years, refuting the statement that poor geology, rather than lack of access to the most prospective areas in OPEC, has kept discoveries low for the past three decades. But also, this implies that discoveries in the past two years have amounted to nearly 20% of the total undiscovered oil which Campbell and Laherrere argued remain! Undoubtedly they -- and others -- will argue that this is due to the firm's inclusion of deepwater reserves, which they are not considering, and that is a factor in the recent robustness of discoveries. However, the primary element behind the greater discovery rates has been the finding of two new supergiant fields in Kazakhstan and Iran. Again, this refutes the argument that discoveries have been relatively low in recent decades due to geological scarcity and supports the optimists' arguments that the lower discoveries are partly due to reduced drilling in the Middle East after the 1970s nationalizations.

And the most crucial fact is actually IHS Energy's reference to earlier discoveries. They have revised their estimates of remaining reserves at end -- 1991 to 1200 billion barrels, implying that oil discovered to that date was close to 1900 billion barrels (since about 675 billion barrels had been produced). This despite the Campbell/Laherrere argument that their data does not experience revisions due to their reliance on P50 (50% probability) estimates, compared to P90 (90% probability) used in the US and by many US oil companies. While there remain uncertainties about future field reserve growth versus historical growth, it becomes clear that it is still continuing and the arguments that they had corrected for the problem are fallacious at best.

Indeed, the sheer size of the revisions are themselves significant. Although I lack access to historical IHS Energy estimates, Campbell and Laherrere had placed "back-dated" reserves in the early 1990s at barely over 1000 billion barrels in their 1998 article. This implies (to be generous) an increase due to revisions of 150 billion barrels or more in a mere five years: 30% more than actual consumption! It means (as I have repeatedly argued) that their discovery trend curves are misleading, because the more recent numbers were understated, and in the future will likely be too low again. The method they use is flawed because of this definitional mistake.

Note also that the amount discovered to 1991 (which would include only minimal deepwater discoveries) is actually significantly greater than the two now estimate would ever be discovered. In fact, IHS Energy puts current reserves at 1100 billion barrels, which, with past production, yields almost 2000 billion barrels, about 10% or 200 billion barrels over the 1800 billion barrels which the duo have confidently predicted would be the ultimate total. Presumably we can expect them to make yet another upwards revision in their URR estimate. Indeed, despite fears of declining discoveries, estimated recoverable resources -- even by pessimists -- have grown faster than consumption. This can hardly be argued as a sign of resource scarcity.

There are many other arguments that have made up part of this debate, and I have tried to deal with each of them in the articles cited below, as well as further forthcoming work. But while we need be concerned about quite a number of issues related to petroleum supply -- depletion, change in reserve growth, concentration of production in politically stable areas -- a possible near-term peak in production (conventional or otherwise) is not one of them. It takes a lot of nails to close a coffin, but the size and quality of these will hopefully ensure that it remains closed.

  1. "Forecasting Oil Supply: Theory and Practice," Quarterly Review of Economics and Finance, 2001, forthcoming.
  2. "The Debate Over Oil Supply: Science or Religion?" Geopolitics of Energy, August 1999.
  3. "Farce this Time: Renewed Pessimism About Oil Supply" Geopolitics of Energy, December 1998-January 1999.
  4. "The Analysis and Forecasting of Petroleum Supply: Sources of Error and Bias," in Energy Watchers VII, ed. by Dorothea H. El Mallakh, International Research Center for Energy and Economic Development, 1996.

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Closing the Other Coffin
by abiotic exploration Monday August 16, 2004 at 03:35 AM

RECENT APPLICATION OF THE MODERN THEORY OF ABIOGENIC HYDROCARBONS.

ORIGINS: DRILLING & DEVELOPMENT OF OIL & GAS FIELDS IN THE DNIEPER-DONETS BASIN

V. A. Krayushkin, T. I. Tchebanenko, V. P. Klochko, Ye. S. Dvoryanin (all at: Institute of Geological Sciences, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Kiev);  J. F. Kenney (Institute of Earth Physics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, C.I.S. & Gas Resources Corporation, Houston, TX 77098, U.S.A)

Abstract:

Here are reported certain specific observations of properties of the Earth's crust which were conducted by drilling and which are not only of profound scientific significance but also of direct economic value to the nation which supported the project. The scientific results reported here fall into two categories:  (1), the discoveries of large deposits of commercially producible petroleum in geological environments which would be considered extraordinary (at least in the U.S.A.);  and (2), the analyses of the chemical, bacteriology and paleontology investigations of that oil for determination of its origin.

Of greater scientific importance than the content of the specific observations or laboratory tests is the context of the body of scientific knowledge through the perspective of which this extensive project was initiated and carried out.  This project has been carried out from its inception in explicit recognition of the modern Russian theory of deep, abiotic hydrocarbon origins.  Although the modern Russian theory of abiogenic hydrocarbon origins is mostly unknown in the U.S.A., there is not space in this short article to describe it.  Thus it must suffice to state simply that the modern theory of hydrocarbon origins recognizes that petroleum is a primordial material erupted from great depth.

          Here is described a recent exploration project on the flanks of the Dnieper-Donets Basin which has been conducted in explicit recognition of the modern theory. This specific project has been chosen from many others because it is a "pure" modern project:  the geological area explored is one which had been extensively studied in the past and had been previously condemned (according to the perspective of an hypothesis of a biological origin for petroleum) as possessing no potential for petroleum production;  the exploration techniques applied, from the initial work-up, through the well planning, to the production tests have been carried out in ways peculiar to such for abiogenic hydrocarbons in crystalline environments;  and the scientific tests upon the petroleum produced were specifically designed to test the assumption that the oil and gas originated at great depth in the Earth. 

          The Dnieper-Donets Basin runs in a NW-SE direction between 30.6°E-40.5°E; its northern and southern borders are traced from 50.0°N-51.8°N and 47.8°N-50.0°N, respectively.  For the first 45 year period of the geological study  of the Northern Monoclinal Flank of the Dnieper-Donets Basin, its sedimentary, metamorphic, and igneous rock had been condemned as possessing no potential for petroleum production for reasons of the complete absence of any "source rock" (so-called) and the presence of active, strongly-circulating artesian waters.  Recently the area was reexamined according to the perspective of the modern theory of deep, abiotic hydrocarbon origins.

          Because the modern theory of hydrocarbon origins recognizes hydrocarbons as primordial material erupted from great depth, the exploration process began with a detailed analysis of the tectonic history and geological structure of the crystalline basement of the Northern Monoclinal Flank of the Dnieper-Donets BasinThe exploration and drilling project which followed resulted in the discovery and development of 12 fields with oil reserves equal to 219 million metric tons of oil equivalent, the major part of which is produced from the Precambrian crystalline basement.  These petroleum fields have been discovered in a narrow strip approximately 30-35 km wide and 400 km long near the Northern Marginal Deep Fault where the oil and gas bearing rocks are Middle and Lower Carboniferous period sandstones and Precambrian granites, amphibolites, and schists of the crystalline basement complex.  This exploration project generated also the discovery of a new gas producing area within a region 30 km wide and 100 km long near Khark for which the producible gas in place has been calculated to be 100 billion cubic meters.

          Of a total number of 61 wells drilled, 37 produce commercial quantities of oil or gas, an exploration success rate of 55%.  The initial flows from the productive wells varied between 40-350 metric tons per day of oil and 100,000-1,600,000 cubic meters of gas per day.  The specific gravity of the oil from the upper sedimentary levels ranges between 25°-48°API, that from the Precambrian crystalline basement rock between 28°-48°API.  The sulfur content of the oil is uniformly less than 0.3%.  The gas from the Precambrian crystalline basement contains also condensates.  The specific formations and depths from which petroleum has been discovered and is now being produced are as follow:

1.)          Production from the upper sedimentary levels:  The oil and gas bearing reservoir rocks in the upper sedimentary levels are Middle and Lower Carboniferous period sandstones. The oil wells which produce from the Carboniferous period sandstones have reservoir depths at the following levels:  3133-3172 m;  3200-3212 m;  3530-3543 m;  and 3666-3688 m.  The gas wells which produce from the Carboniferous period sandstones have reservoir depths:  1738-1754 m;  1802-1835 m;  2034-2063 m;  2813-2854 m;  2905-2994 m;  2910-2943 m;  2987-3526 m;  2990-3176 m;  3080-3339 m;  3089-3135 m;  3425-3603 m;  3439-3442 m;  3450-3469 m;  3472-3500 m; 3506-3528 m; 3530-3543 m; 3638-3724 m;  3824-3845 m;  3874-3933 m;  3962-4002 m;  4007-4100 m;  4423-4463 m;  and 4500-4505 m.

 

2.)          Production from the Precambrian crystalline basement:  In addition to these reservoirs in the sedimentary rock, above, the exploration drilling has discovered five reservoirs in the Precambrian crystalline basement rock complex at depths ranging from several meters to 200 meters below the top of the crystalline basement.  From such traditionally unusual reservoir rock, oil and gas wells produce from the following levels:  3135-3151 m;  3164-3172 m;  3167-3173 m;  3192-3196 m;  3200-3280 m;  3213-3235 m;  3240-3260 m;  3244-3272 m, 3432-3498 m;  3468-3480 m;  3501-3520 m;  3516-3529 m;  3521-3531 m;  3547-3550 m;  3552-3570 m;  3590-3612 m;  3610-3625 m;  3618-3687 m;  3636-3735 m;  3685-3695 m;  3735-3800 m;  and 4020-4041 m.

 

          The trapping strata for the reservoirs in the Carboniferous period sandstones are shallower shale formations, as is typical for sedimentary reservoirs.  The trapping strata for the reservoirs in the Precambrian crystalline basement are impervious, non-fractured, essentially horizontal zones of crystalline rock which alternate with the fractured, uncompacted, bed-like zones of granite and amphibolite.

 

          Following the discovery of these petroleum reservoirs, a series of quite different scientific investigations have been carried out to test the initial assumptions that the oil and gas have entered the reservoir formations from great depth.  Those laboratory analyses are described here briefly.

 

1.)         Analysis and correlations of trace element abundances in oil:  The oil produced from all reservoirs and depths have been analyzed for correlations of their trace metallic elements.  For example the ratios of Ni/V and of either Methane or Nitrogen have been measured.  The abundances of the trace metals show a clear correlation and have thereby established that the oil at all levels share a common, deep source, characterized by diffusive separation, regardless of the age, type or circumstance of the particular reservoir rocks.

 

2.)         Paleontology analyses of the oil, - and its significance:  The Paleontology analyses of the oil in the shallower Permian and Upper and Lower Carboniferous sandstone formations have demonstrated the presence of spore-pollen and other microphytofossils of the Devonian and Proterozoic ages, establishing thereby upward migration from the deeper formations, which migration is not necessarily correlated to the age of either.  The paleontology analyses of the oil from these wells has been performed by laboratories in Lvov, Minsk and Moscow.  The proterozoic microphytofossils examined included the following:  Protoleiospheridium conglutinatum Tim., Zonoleiospheridium larum Med., Leiominuscula rugosa Naum., Margominuscula rugosa Medw., Protoarchaeosacculina stava. Naum., Leiopsophosphaera giganteus Schep., Asperatopsophosphaera magna Schep., Strictosphaeridium implexum Tim., Gloecapsomorpha hebeja Tim., Turuchanica alara Rud., Pulvinomorpha angulata Tim.  The observations from all laboratories have been that the proportion of proterozoic microphytofossils is usually equal to 70%-75% of the total spore pollen abundance in oil from every formation and reservoir, irrespective of the reservoir rock, its depth or its age.

 

3.)          Bacteriological analysis of the oil and the examination for so-called “biological marker” molecules:  The oil produced from the reservoirs in the crystalline basement rock of the Dnieper-Donets Basin has been examined particularly closely for the presence of either porphyrin molecules or “biological marker” molecules, the presence of which used to be misconstrued as "evidence" of a supposed biological origin for petroleum.  None of the oil contains any such molecules, even at the ppm level.  There is also research presently under progress which has established the presence of deep, anaerobic, hydrocarbon metabolizing microbes in the oil from the wells in the uppermost petroliferous zones of the crystalline basement rock in the Dnieper-Donets Basin.

 

4.)         Measurement of elevated abundances of helium:  The petroleum from all producing reservoirs manifest elevated abundance of helium.  The natural gas and oil from, for example, the Yulyovskoye field contain not less than 180,000,000 m3 of helium.  Helium is of deep origin and can be transported significant distances in the Earth's crust only by entrainment in another carrier fluid, typically hydrocarbons or hydrocarbons and carbon dioxide or nitrogen together, by which process it becomes concentrated in the carrier fluid.

 

          These results, taken either individually or together, confirm the scientific conclusions that the oil and natural gas found both in the Precambrian crystalline basement and the sedimentary cover of the Northern Monoclinal Flank of the Dnieper-Donets Basin are of deep, and abiotic, origin.

 

          For this work, the present authors responsible for the discovery of these 12 fields were awarded the State Prize of Ukraine in the field of Science and Technology in 1993.

 

          Furthermore, the exploration drilling is still in progress and continues to yield success.  Today (15 February 1994), there are 20 commercial new oil and gas fields under development.  One of these new fields is the Khukhrya field with reserves of 18 million metric tons of oil.  Another is the Yulyovskoye oil and gas field for which the presently discovered petroleum reserves have been calculated to be 27 million tons of oil equivalent.

 

          published in:  Krayushkin, V. A., T. I. Tchebanenko, V. P. Klochko, Ye. S. Dvoryanin, J. F. Kenney, (1994). Recent applications of the modern theory of abiogenic hydrocarbon origins:  Drilling and development of oil & gas fields in the Dneiper-Donets Basin. VIIth International Symposium on the Observation of the Continental Crust through Drilling, Santa Fe, NM, DOSECC.

http://www.gasresources.net/DDBfields.htm

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Response to Sheila
by *** Monday August 16, 2004 at 10:25 AM

You have not provided the data or its sources. All you have provided is one email from someone names Castles who agrees with you. You keep saying this is based on data from Maddison, but he says NOTHING about oil in his books. Infact as far as I can tell he has a totally different interpretation of his figures than you.

BUT for the sake of not going round in circles again... I'll assume that you are correct that oil production is going up slower than population...

This does NOT prove Peak Oil at all (infact it suggests the opposite - that oil production keeps going UP). Also, the fact that oil production has been generally been keeping up with demand is proven by the fact that in real terms - oil prices have NOT gone up except for during crises caused by politics. This can be seen clearly on the two charts (with properly sourced figures) I provided on the link below.
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/08/75930_comment.php#76117

What this actually proves is that population growth is NOT the issue you claim it to be because as population has increased, efficiency and new technology has developed also.

The soft energy path is already coming to pass. America's total energy consumption is actually running lower than projected in Lovins's 1976 soft-path scenario. "Soft technologies" (appropriate renewables) were delayed by official hindrances, yet improved efficiency has more than made up the difference."
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid292.php


Also I have provided figures here and on other threads which show that Australia is a NET ENEGRY EXPORTER AND DOES PROVIDE MOST OF ITS OWN OIL. It has NOT gone into debt from oil imports, and as anybody can see has a MUCH HIGHER standard of living than most of the European countries you mention. All that this proves is that after WW2 they had further to go to catch up with very rich (and relatively un-affected by the war) countries like Australia and the US.

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Fear and ignorance
by F.Dancing Monday August 16, 2004 at 11:05 AM

This thread good example of low effort disinformation.

Less than a hundred original words from peak-oil-as-corp-conspiracy + abiogenisis posts, thousands in their cut'n'paste's. Coherent and ordered argument almost entirely lacking, no response to Sheila & DrStrangelove responses to those theories.

Welcome to the flame wars, where the ignorant vent their despair against those that would inform & assist.

Never mind, $5/litre oil will clarify things somewhat; i only hope theres still time after that to remake our civilisation.




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The Peak Oil Myth: Ending The Debate TWICE
by DTG: 221900Z JAN 91 w/ Ariel Irving Monday August 16, 2004 at 11:23 AM

You, of course, are a paid, lying fraud, "F.Dancing".

Go ride a bike in the moonlight.

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The Peak Oil Possibility: Starting The Debate THRICE
by Dr Strangelove Monday August 16, 2004 at 04:29 PM

Michael Lynch, your failed Political Science PhD candidate and energy market adviser to the likes of the US Govt, IMF and World Bank, is a well known and somewhat excitable anti-peak oil advocate.

He has not ended the debate, he is part of it. Your advocate represents the bullish side of the oil investment community and like you uses the USGS and official oil company data to 'prove' there is no oil problem.

However, the whole point of this very much current and ongoing debate is that the USGS 2000 data also supports the peak oil advocates who, like Campbell, Laherrere and Deffeyes, are mostly retired, independent and/or academic geologists. This peak oil message is not coming from the US Government or the oil companies. You represent the official corporate and governmental deniers with your anti-peak trolls.

But that places you right in the middle of the debate that is going on around the world as we speak. I invite you to subscribe to the energyResources Yahoo list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/. There you can peddle your views to an informed international audience who no doubt will be much relieved that they can now rest easy in the knowledge that we have nothing to worry about.

I look forward to seeing you there as I think it is of the utmost urgency that you inform the public, our Deputy Prime Minister John Anderson, WA minister Allanah MacTiernan and everyone else that has been fooled by this vast global conspiracy that Drs Colin Campbell and Ali Bakhtiari are Enron/Bush double agents, that the US aggression in the Middle East is designed to boost the profits of the Iranian Ayatollahs, and that abiogenesis guarantees a constant growth in oil supplies which at current recharge rates should fill the oceans of the world by 2100.

There's not much time ***, the peak oilists are gaining ground and only YOU can fight this LIE. The road ahead may be dangerous but have courage for your TRUTH must OUT!

"The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing" John Adams.

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Dr Strangelove IGNORING the debate repeatedly
by Fed up Monday August 16, 2004 at 04:55 PM

Not one single Peak Oil person has actually been able to counter or even respond sensible to the arguments that ANYBODY has put forward against Peak Oil here. They just keep posting rude, elitist, partonising, rambly posts with no content. Your figures are also continually wrong or just plain fraudulent (as I have proven repeatedly).

So why don't you fuck off and stop spamming MIM with your scam? You don't need to use this forum to spread your oil industry propaganda - I'm sure the National Iranian Oil COmpany or the State could spare you a gfew more $$ to set up your own site.

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Peak oil sceptics clueless
by F.Dancing Monday August 16, 2004 at 05:26 PM

Sometimes wish i WAS a paid lying fraud, "DTG..", cos then i could go relax into gorging on imperialisms dividend (cheap food, energy, consumer durables...) while letting right wing think tanks make my mind up for me (e.g. Bjorn Lomborg, Michael Lynch etc).

I say again, no coherent argument has been made here against peak oil. Only 2 points made by 'sceptics' (tho repeated endlessly in garbled forms):
1.
Abiogenisis - no response from 'sceptics' to ripost that EVEN IF ABIOGENISIS TRUE (which 99% of geologists would disagree with) the RATE at which oil is seeping into old wells in miniscule and so its irrelevant to global oil supplies.
2.
Campbell & Laherrere have been wrong about peaking date before, so therefore peaking will never happen. Lucky you guys weren't friends of the Wright brothers eh, would've said "Michaelangelo couldn't do it, after many failed design's you blokes can't do it, so it must be impossible". So if Eddie Macguire sez Collingwood will win this yrs AFL flag, and they don't, does that mean they never will?

Save up for a clue guys, even if y'all have to share your first one it'd be progress. If yr just gonna regurgitate disinfo, at least make it plausible, please.

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What Dancing Fraud ignores
by fed up Monday August 16, 2004 at 06:01 PM

What Dancing Fraud i...
chron03.gifjsfuzn.gif, image/gif, 605x480

Oil prices in real terms

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...
by ... Monday August 16, 2004 at 06:06 PM

......
oilprice1947.gifaiv7ru.gif, image/gif, 800x600

1. OPEC begins to assert power; raises tax rate & posted prices
2. OPEC begins nationalization process; raises prices in response to falling US dollar.
3. Negotiations for gradual transfer of ownership of western assets in OPEC countries
4. Oil embargo begins (October 19-20, 1973)
5. OPEC freezes posted prices; US begins mandatory oil allocation
6. Oil embargo ends (March 18, 1974)
7. Saudis increase tax rates and royalties
8. US crude oil entitlements program begins
9. OPEC announces 15% revenue increase effective October 1, 1975
11. Official Saudi Light price held constant for 1976
12. Iranian oil production hits a 27-year low
13. OPEC decides on 14.5% price increase for 1979
14. Iranian revolution; Shah deposed
15. OPEC raises prices 14.5% on April 1, 1979
US phased price decontrol begins
16. OPEC raises prices 15%
17. Iran takes hostages; President Carter halts imports from Iran; Iran cancels US contracts; Non-OPEC output hits 17.0 million b/d
18. Saudis raise marker crude price from 19$/bbl to 26$/bbl
19. Windfall Profits Tax enacted
20. Kuwait, Iran, and Libya production cuts drop OPEC oil production to 27 million b/d
21. Saudi Light raised to $28/bbl
22. Saudi Light raised to $34/bbl
23. First major fighting in Iran-Iraq War
24. President Reagan abolishes remaining price and allocation controls
25. Spot prices dominate official OPEC prices
26. US boycotts Libyan crude; OPEC plans 18 million b/d output
27. Syria cuts off Iraqi pipeline
28. Libya initiates discounts; Non-OPEC output reaches 20 million b/d; OPEC output drops to 15 million b/d
OPEC cuts prices by $5/bbl and agrees to 17.5 million b/d output
29. Norway, United Kingdom, and Nigeria cut prices
30. OPEC accord cuts Saudi Light price to $28/bbl
31. OPEC output falls to 13.7 million b/d
33. Saudis link to spot price and begin to raise output
OPEC output reaches 18 million b/d
34. Wide use of netback pricing
35. Wide use of fixed prices
36. Wide use of formula pricing
37. OPEC/Non-OPEC meeting failure
38. OPEC production accord; Fulmar/Brent production outages in the North Sea
39. Exxon's Valdez tanker spills 11 million gallons of crude oil
40. OPEC raises production ceiling to 19.5 million b/d
42. Iraq invades Kuwait
43. Operation Desert Storm begins; 17.3 million barrels of SPR crude oil sales is awarded
44. Persian Gulf war ends
45. Dissolution of Soviet Union; Last Kuwaiti oil fire is extinguished on November 6, 1991
46. UN sanctions threatened against Libya
47. Saudi Arabia agrees to support OPEC price increase
48. OPEC production reaches 25.3 million b/d, the highest in over a decade
49. Kuwait boosts production by 560,000 b/d in defiance of OPEC quota
50. Nigerian oil workers' strike
51. Extremely cold weather in the US and Europe
52. U.S. launches cruise missile attacks into southern Iraq following an Iraqi-supported invasion of Kurdish safe haven areas in northern Iraq.
53. Iraq begins exporting oil under United Nations Security Council Resolution 986.
54. Prices rise as Iraq's refusal to allow United Nations weapons inspectors into "sensitive" sites raises tensions in the oil-rich Middle East.
55. OPEC raises its production ceiling by 2.5 million barrels per day to 27.5 million barrels per day. This is the first increase in 4 years.
56. World oil supply increases by 2.25 million barrels per day in 1997, the largest annual increase since 1988.
57. Oil prices continue to plummet as increased production from Iraq coincides with no growth in Asian oil demand due to the Asian economic crisis and increases in world oil inventories following two unusually warm winters.
58. OPEC pledges additional production cuts for the third time since March 1998. Total pledged cuts amount to about 4.3 million barrels per day.
59. Oil prices triple between January 1999 and September 2000 due to strong world oil demand, OPEC oil production cutbacks, and other factors, including weather and low oil stock levels.
60. President Clinton authorizes the release of 30 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) over 30 days to bolster oil supplies, particularly heating oil in the Northeast.
61. Oil prices fall due to weak world demand (largely as a result of economic recession in the United States) and OPEC overproduction.
62. Oil prices decline sharply following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, largely on increased fears of a sharper worldwide economic downturn (and therefore sharply lower oil demand). Prices then increase on oil production cuts by OPEC and non-OPEC at the beginning of 2002, plus unrest in the Middle East and the possibility of renewed conflict with Iraq.
63. OPEC oil production cuts, unrest in Venezuela, and rising tension in the Middle East contribute to a significant increase in oil prices between January and June.
64. A general strike in Venezuela, concern over a possible military conflict in Iraq, and cold winter weather all contribute to a sharp decline in U.S. oil inventories and cause oil prices to escalate further at the end of the year.
65. Continued unrest in Venezuela and oil traders' anticipation of imminent military action in Iraq causes prices to rise in January and February, 2003.
66. Military action commences in Iraq on March 19, 2003. 66. Iraqi oil fields are not destroyed as had been feared. Prices fall.

Original concept for the chart was by the Analysis Division in the Office of Management Operations; Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Modified and updated by the Office of Energy Markets and End Use in the Energy Information Administration.

This chronology was orginally published by the Department of Energy's Office of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, Analysis Division.

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Rabid Troll seeks Political Discussion?
by Dr Strangelove Monday August 16, 2004 at 08:52 PM

"So why don't you fuck off and stop spamming MIM with your scam?"

Yes, well why don't you indeed? I'd rather you try and put an argument together though as at the moment all you are doing is spitting in my face and spamming this thread with endless cut and pastes with no interpretation. You can't seem to speak for yourself leaving the rest of us to piece your facile arguments together from all these fragments and your brainless invective.

Perhaps we could meet face to face sometime as I find that immediacy much more conducive of rational debate than the separation of cyberspace. People also tend not to be so stupidly rude in person, not in my experience anyway. Maybe you could organise a meet up? Your contra arguments still belong in any oil debate and are useful for those of us who are worried that the world is on the precipice of the end of the era of cheap oil.

So I take it from this latest troll you are backing off the abiogenesis guff and now wish to point out that oil supply has historically been a function of a rather complex interplay of market forces and geopolitics, but lets not forget geology also of course.

What conclusions do you derive from your potted history of oil production? Are you arguing that because oil pricing is a matter of geopolitical importance then any upwards movement in price is due _solely_ to manipulation by those countries blessed (or cursed) with oil bearing geological strata and the major powers that are their 'customers'? Welcome to the 'great game', did you know it was the RAF under Churchill that first used bombs and poison gas to murder and subdue Arabs in order to secure cheap oil supplies for the British Imperial armed forces?

These political power plays assume an abundance of cheap oil though, at least an abundance somewhere. The US oil peak in 1970, still as yet largely uneffected by abiogenetic recharge, led to a shift in the balance of oil power towards the Middle East with Saudi Arabia becoming an important swing producer. A regional peak dictated by the geology of US oil depletion led to a shift in the politics of supply. Even here politics worked within the constraints of geology.

At the moment we're at about the same pricing level, adjusted for inflation, as the initial 1973 oil price shock. Should an Iranian counter revolution occur with a neocon war to free the supposedly oppressed peoples of Iran then no doubt we'll see a major shock as Iranian supplies are taken off the market for a while as they were in 1979. That would probably see oil at around $US100/bbl and it would trigger a major global economic recession.

I imagine, since you fail to explain yourself, that you see the 70's oil crises as a model for what is happening today ... yes? It's all geopolitics with peak oil leading the propaganda charge.

Now that's a perfectly reasonable argument to make if you could just string more than a couple of sentences together free of juvenile insults. Perhaps you could also just link to some of your supporting material rather than waste MIM bandwidth. However, your political argument still doesn't address the possibility that our gigantic oil consumption driven by and supporting massive population growth (in part Sheila's argument) along with the development of China's and India's economies is outstripping the capacity of the world's oil fields to feed it.

With or without peak oil there will be a rollover of supply and demand. Demand is growing exponentially with population and supply cannot keep up indefinitely. The urgency of today's debate however rests on the fact that the current supply crisis is not only a factor of political power plays and increasing demand, which could be at least offset by increased development and production of oil supply, but that the world's oil fields outside of the Middle East have already peaked and are in decline, with or without abiogenetic recharge and after a quarter of a century of intensive exploration and exploitation since the US peak and 70's oil crises.

In this context the possibility of a global peak in oil production looms as an urgent wake up call to all of us, you included. If peak occurs as early as the ASPO predictions suggest, between 2005-2008, then the great game enters a new era, an extremely unstable one in which all previous bets and the world order that sustained them are off. In many ways we have already entered that new world order with the democratic conquest of Iraq.

But if peak occurs then this time the main player will be mother nature and there will be no 1980's style recovery from the oil shocks that follow. There will be ongoing oil shocks as global production plateaus, ongoing recessions and the continuation of the oil war we Australians are already engaged in. Some time after 2010 when we enter the depletion curve and the end of economic growth the recessions will become a great depression and if the neocons are successful the supreme crime of aggression will become our way of life until an alternative to cheap oil is found or we become extinct as a species through the great destroyers war, famine and pestilence.

Given the possible consequences for humanity as a whole some of us feel that the possibility of peak oil needs to be publicly discussed even if in the end it is proven wrong. You are already part of that discussion and I think it's important that you at least try and mount a rationally coherent contra argument free of your childish taunts and in your own words. You don't have to agree with us of course, just tell us rationally why you think the geological arguments are invalid.

Either that or just "fuck off and stop spamming MIM with your scam" :)

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You asking me on a date?
by Fed up Oil Company propaganda Monday August 16, 2004 at 10:45 PM

"Perhaps we could meet face to face sometime"
Well, sorry but I don't go out with Aussies or oil company stooges.

As far as my arguments you could try reading them. I have put up articles, facts and figures to show that the current price rises are due to the war in Iraq and issues in other OPEC countries particularly Venezuela (did you notice the price of oil dropped as soon as ballot results were in? http://edition.cnn.com/ ). They are also due to damaged infrastructure in many OPEC countries (especially Iraq) as well as deliberate price-fixing (quotas).

I have so far put up tons of info to explain that the ecconomic reasons behind the Gulf War were as much about keeping the price of oil UP and keeping Iraqi and Kuwaiti oill off the market as controlling it.

I have also put up figures (above) to show that in real terms the price of oil has NOT gone up.

I have also disproved your dodgy charts about Australian oil. And esplained why a) Australia has not invested as much in oil as other fossil fuels and b) why Australias current decline in oil production is only temporary.

Also I have pointed out the links between the Peak Oil fraud and big business attempts to raise oil prices and get more government funding.

BUt you refer to all my evidence as "cut and paste" and "spam" and "trolling". It seems you don't like actual facts and figures. Probably because with actual data people are able to come to their own conclusions about whether your interpretation is correct or not. You prefer to ignore facts and make speeches that are totally unsubstantiated and at best only refer to Peak Oil sites.

Also I point out that others here have posted tons of articles on abiogenesis which you have just dismissed. They have also posted evidence of viable oil wells being shut down and similar price fixing disasters like ENRON. You have ignored all this completely too.

Everybody has shown tons of evidence that there is more oil being discovered than was expected by anyone and that reserves are not about to run out anytime soon.

You have also deliberately painted everyone who has disagreed with you of being anti-green. This despite the fact that Peak Soil argued that abiogenesis was MORE of a reason to switch to sustainable technology; and I have consistently argued for a more to sustainable technology - both for environmental reasons as well as to break the oil and energy companies monopolies.

You however, have consistently played down the advances in sustainable technology in favour of a very nihilistic idea of moving backwards to less people and less technology of any kind. From what I have read this seems a common trait of Peak Oil arguments - one that can only serve the agenda of the oil companies by discrediting alternative technologies from a supposedly "green" standpoint.

So why don't YOU fuck off and stop discrediting the green movement.

add your comments


A Peak Oil Date - 2010
by Dr Strangelove Tuesday August 17, 2004 at 02:03 AM

1 - "the current price rises are due to the war in Iraq and issues in other OPEC countries particularly Venezuela.... They are also due to damaged infrastructure in many OPEC countries (especially Iraq) as well as deliberate price-fixing (quotas)".

I understand that your political interpretation must discount any geological constraints on supply but as we enter a plateau in production any political disruptions to supply will be amplified, such as for instance the mere threat of Yukos oil being taken off the market. All you are doing here is pointing out that regional problems have an increased effect at a time when OPEC and especially Saudi Arabia are seemingly no longer capable of playing a swing role. No doubt that is all part of your global conspiracy theory but you cannot discount the possibility that they simply cannot pump any more than they are already doing can you? And that is precisely the geological problem that may be emerging, it's a possibility that is currently on the table and open to discussion just as Hubbert introduced the possibility of the US peak in 1970 and was vilified for it.

But according to ASPO we're probably not at peak yet and if Iraq ever comes back online and demand cools off the pricing situation might improve in the short term. Apparently it's likely oil will go to $US50 before that happens though and a lot of analysts suggest it may never go back under $US40. According to your research however that doesn't mean that oil prices are 'rising' ... how do you define a 'rise'?

2 - "I have also put up figures (above) to show that in real terms the price of oil has NOT gone up".

Really? So oil at $US46/bbl isn't an oil price rise? Tell that to the markets as adjusted for inflation it's at the same level as the 1973 oil shock, it has risen even against the Euro which OPEC seems to be using as a benchmark. How can you say that a move from $US10 to $US46 isn't a 'rise' especially for the US?

3 - "I have also disproved your dodgy charts about Australian oil. And esplained why a) Australia has not invested as much in oil as other fossil fuels and b) why Australias current decline in oil production is only temporary".

There are any number of reports that Aus oil has hit its peak and is already declining. If your analysis is true then this is a major turnaround for the future of our economy considering that we'll apparently be relying on foreign oil imports for the majority of our consumption within a few short years. Maybe you can make a consulting career out of your novel interpretations of the Australian oil industry, they need bullish optimists like yourself at the moment, just ask Akehurst.

4 - "Also I have pointed out the links between the Peak Oil fraud and big business attempts to raise oil prices and get more government funding".

Shocking, really shocking, so Colin Campbell really is an Enron stooge then? I do refer to all your evidence as "cut and paste" and "spam" and "trolling" as that is what you are doing, especially in reference to Campbell and big business conniving to invent a peak oil fraud. Your actual facts and figures are plastered all over this thread and others with little explanation and where you do offer us your expertise it really does just sound like so much trolling. I understand that it is your contention that 'peak oil' is a corporate sponsored fraud, I just don't agree with you and I think you are absurd as far as that goes. But that's just me. So what else do you have?

5 - "I point out that others here have posted tons of articles on abiogenesis which you have just dismissed".

Yep, and again what is it about abiogenesis that you think is going to solve all our problems? The US has been depleting since 1970 (or is that another clever fraud?) the Soviet Union peaked late 80's even with its abiotic oil fields ... and so on. Do you think abiogenesis will have any effect on replenishing our current 80mb/d consumption? Why do you go on about it? Give it up mate, you're just grasping at straws.

6 - "They have also posted evidence of viable oil wells being shut down and similar price fixing disasters like ENRON. You have ignored all this completely too".

Yes, I also understand that you think the worldwide depletion experienced in oil fields from Texas to Bass Straight and the Caucasus is due to a coordinated global conspiracy whereby various nations and corporate entities cut their profits in the short term in order to run the price up. And you think peak oil advocates are loonies? Again, what effect do you think this has on global consumption and the inevitability that oil production will peak, if not by 2005-2008 then according to more optimistic estimates by the median of 2020. Or are you arguing that everyone is wrong and that only YOU can see the TRUTH that oil will never peak, that abiotic oil is a renewable source of energy, that the current OPEC problems are due solely to short term political manipulation and that our current way of life will continue unabated forever? Do you think you're a bit out of your depth here and developing megalomania?

7 - "Everybody has shown tons of evidence that there is more oil being discovered than was expected by anyone and that reserves are not about to run out anytime soon".

Again, all you and 'everybody' does is parrot corporate and nationalist oil data that is precisely what is in question as far as the peak oil predictions go. If you trust the oil nations and the corporations then that's fine, there really is no problem and we can all go back to business as usual. Otherwise you might like to check out some of the ASPO and other peak oil data on the web as the issue of data transparency is precisely the problem. Inflated oil reserve estimates, especially 'proven' oil, have not stopped oil fields around the world from depleting. The future growth of oil supply is what is in question and you offer no 'proof' to the contrary, only corporate estimates.

"So why don't YOU fuck off and stop discrediting the green movement"

A classic troll to finish off your otherwise fairly reasonable if somewhat implausible summary of the world oil scenario. Alternatives to the super abundance of cheap oil that has fed post WW2 globalisation would be good, if we had them on hand now, but we don't and if we peak in 2006 the transition to alternative energy economies is going to be difficult to say the least.

Apart from your pathetic appeal to some sort of greenie credential I do appreciate your attempt at reasoned discourse. Your optimistic appraisal of the energy situation is in my opinion rather overstated. You see only politics where the question is about geology and you back your anti-peak claims up by either a recourse to corporate estimates of oil reserves or an illogical reliance on abiogenesis as somehow discounting the possibility of peak oil. Do you agree that oil will peak, that it is a non-renewable resource at current consumption rates? Or are you actually arguing that abiogenesis means renewable energy? You're a bit ambiguous about that one and it really is totally ludicrous as far as I'm concerned.

Also note that you haven't and simply can't "prove" any of your assertions, especially the one about peak oil. Nor can I, we are working here with possibilities. Global peak oil is inevitable, just as the US peaked in 1970, and its current predictions for 2005-2008 remain a possibility to be either proved or disproved after the fact. If in 2010 we get together here on MIM and go over the latest oil production figures we might start to see a definite trend in oil supply one way or the other. If you're right and we haven't peaked by then I'll buy you a beer. What do you reckon?

add your comments


National Iranian Oil Company loves Peak Oil
by Fed up with Dr Stangeloves oil company lies Tuesday August 17, 2004 at 10:25 AM

I gave you a brief summary of all the info I put up here. So you then argue against a few SENTENCES in my SUMMARY based on the fact you have not read ANY of the other posts I have put up full of EVIDENCE supporting this (even on THIS PAGE). Again, you distorted and conveniently left out the bits supporting sustainable technology - especially the bit about how abiogenesis is MORE of an argument for not using oil. As I said I have put up plenty of evidence to support everything I have said here. I don't want to have to keep putting up all my posts over and over again. Especially when you don't read them anyway.

TRY READING MY POSTS FIRST, THEN RESPOND.

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game, set, match to Strangelove
by F.Dancing Tuesday August 17, 2004 at 01:13 PM

An excellent try Dr Strangelove, but theres none so blind as those shit scared of change.

I only wonder if "Fed up/peakoilpropaganda/etc" is really spinifex/parsons/edfusco/popw/etc, MIM's most industrious and foul mouthed troll, whose old monikers have been absent in recent days. Maybe he's too busy with this thread? Wish he'd stick to one name tho.

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