mossad agents Killing Oz Tourists to Steal their Identity used in terror opps : Melbourne Indymedia

The Israeli Mossad agent Zev Barkan has been running Asian criminal gangs used to obtain Australian Identity documents and other passports stolen from Australians Killed in Asia, a New Zealand security official has said.

I was contacted by a New Zealand official, who has intelligence connections in Asia while I was shopping in Toul Tom Pong Market in Phnom Penh and provided documents to support this information on the condition that it remain anonymous and I not publish the documents considering the risk to officials if the source of this leak was identified, this New Zealand official said Barkan was connected to an Israeli terrorist cell operating out of Thailand.

"He goes to Laos, Cambodia, Burma and Thailand and is running gangs that he pays to kill tourists, and steal their Identity papers passports then cover it up, most just disappear or their deaths have been reported as accidents, drownings and such, they like to throw their victims off the side of tour boats" said a New Zealand security official

Barkan has been named by New Zealand authorities as the kingpin in a passport theft ring for which two Israelis with Australian links were jailed for six months last week in Auckland.

One of the jailed men, Eli Cara, 50, had his rented home in Turramurra raided by ASIO in March. A short time later, he was arrested in New Zealand.

The New Zealand Government has named Barkan, Cara and the other convicted man, Uriel Kelman, as Mossad agents.

Barkan fled New Zealand before police moved in. There are reports that Barkan, using a Stolen Canadian Identity documents, has now made a move to North Korea out of reach of authorities.

"Barkan is mostly interested in passports and identity documents, there have been a number of Australian killed for their passports."

Intelligence analysts in New Zealand believe Barkan, a former navy diver in the Israeli IOF, was trying to secure a clean passports for use in Israeli terrorist operations in the region.

Barkan had grown up in Washington as Zev Bruckenstein, where his father was director of religious studies at a synagogue.

A New Zealand security official says his services have uncovered an Israeli operation to create al-Qaeda cells in Thailand. The security official in Thailand said Israeli terrorist are posing as operatives of al-Qaeda.

Over the past nine months we have been investigating eight cases, 11 people informed us of this Israeli operation, asking Thai Landers to join al-Qaeda. One email had even been signed by the al-Qaeda leader, Osama bin Laden. a New Zealand official said.

A New Zealand official said his services had traced back to Israel the phone calls and emails - purportedly from Germany and Lebanon and Pakistan.

We investigated the origin of those calls and found out they all came from Israel.

The people the Israelis tried to recruit were then given stolen Australian documents, and received money and weapons.

The money was provided by Israel directly to the recruits or was transferred from bank accounts in Jerusalem or Israel, said the New Zealand official.

This same shit was posted on Sydney IMC (http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=43798&group=webcast) where it sits untouched as the admins argue in a separate thread why the site is considered a joke.

It was partly lifted from an SMH article and then distorted to add the bits about Osama, the Mossad (where NZ has failed to actually prove this or charge them accordingly) and hide bits such as "suspected" to try and make it look definitive when it is not.

Googling led me to this: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/18/1090089038600.html?oneclick=true

Almost identical to the above except for some cosmetic changes. Specifically: The headline (mossad agents Killing Oz Tourists to Steal their Identity to use in fake al-Qaeda operations) - yeah right...

Then, where the SMH referred to "There are unconfirmed reports that Barkan..." the poster deleted the word unconfirmed. Why create doubt on a good Israel bashing eh?

Additionally, where the poster above wrote "Barkan, a former navy diver in the Israeli IOF [sic], was trying to secure a clean passports [sic] for use in Israeli terrorist operations in the region." we should all have been skeptical.

The original article said: "Barkan, a former navy diver in the Israeli Defence Force, was trying to secure a "clean" passport for use in a sensitive Israeli undercover operation in the region, less risky than a forged passport."

Hmmm... Sensitive undercover operation becomes terrorism. Could it be that Israel is chasing real terrorists?

The whole last half of the article (final 6 paragraphs) are complete fabrication. No source, no evidence, no truth, no problem.

Yawn....

" bkmc ' or similar
' Richard Woltstonecroft' ( may be the same , hard to find anyone who gives two shits to confirm that)
' Leon Carter' ( blames jews for the holocaust...could be right. )
' Spinifex ' ( for making Israel supporters look barken mad )
' nazihunter ' same reason as above.
' brian' ( to be kneecapped only )
' pr ' Strict orders from Arial and Shimon to nuke Kyneton

What about Nigel?

Oh, yeah. That's right. He thinks Israel is in its "death throes" doesn't he?

NZ has askd for it a bit ( this is not a defence just a background). They have had a really lax set of passport controlls for a long time.
If they were to have a proper look I think a lot of "extra" passports would turn up, From a lot of organisations.
To their credit I believe they are reviewing their system.

Interesting story, fits with the many stories saying al quaeda etc are just the bunnies for Mossad &/or CIA.

Super rapid smother operation by 'nazihunter' (<30mins to find story, read, research & conclude false), discrete planting of 'antiMossad=Nazi' meme, very professional job.

The Nation of Islam and the KKK liased and worked together because they both shared the same interests.

They both wanted to spread hate and division because it increased their own power over the masses.

The authorities unofficially tolerated them while they assasinate Malcolm X and MLK because the ruling class and state stay in power through divide and conquer.

By spraying out dozens of theories that make no sense or have glaring flaws that have been repeatedly exposed, those with something to hide can discredit the idea that anything other than 'official sources' might represent the truth.

Creating 'cognitive dissonance' they call it, its why those with power &/or money have no need of direct censorship to obscure their doings.

Its a lot of work, but it effectively disrupts open publishing mediums like indymedia and stops mainstream journo's ever getting ideas for themselves.

Mole, where in the name of Arafat's underpants did you get the impression NZ has had lax passport rules. Israel has also done the same to Canada and most likely done the some to Australia whilst you were all concentrating on babys being chucked off ships and crawling in the shadow of a Bush.

At least the Kiwi have laid the law down, I believe the Israeli embassy is in Australia.

Looking at the way Howard is fawning over George B, and your underarm bowling history, I wouldnt put it past you aussies for giving them the idea.

The real reason why they went for NZ passports because according to so called experts, NZ has the safest passports in the world that allows people free access, unlike Australia, Usa, Britain and the northern hemisphere countries.

We dont go around chucking stones at the North Koreans over their nuclear weapons armoury of about 4, when Israel hass 200 thermo nuclear bombs do we, we chuck em at all countries. It could be the reason why our passports are so much in demand is because our leaders will ensure any country needs to apologise promptly for transgressing the soveriegnty of our country. Remember, Nuclear Free Zones and American warships not allowed in NZ if they are Nuclear powered or contain Nuclear weapons, again that ban includes all countries who carry/have nuclear weapons.

We dont go running to America crying if we have an opponent who looks like his party could be the new Government in Australia and then George B and Colin P, are on your national TV, lambasting Latham.

When did Australia become the 54th State of America ?

At least this side of the ditch the ANZAC spirit remains strong and free, and long may it be so.

Followup debate is interesting.

What's not acceptable is that this article, a blatant fabrication proved as such remains on the site.

And you wonder why the site isn't taken seriously? Fear what happened to Sydney....

So what did happen in Sydney? Did they turn and look backwards and were turned into pillars of salt or something? Am I old enough to know?

What happened in Sydney was this. When SIM didn't do what Nazihunter and his friends wanted which was basically editorial control they adopted the personas of rabid Nazis and spammed the wire with insane, over the top anti-semitic bullshit. Then they blamed it all on SIM.

Don't let that happen here. Ban him, ban him now.

Ta, for the explanation, Mum just said I have to go to bed now before some adult type stuff comes down in response and I learn new words.
Nighty night.

It's too bad about the Sydney site going down. I was quite enjoying the hurly burly of it all. Personally I considered the article itself to be somewhat unlikely. I can't see why anyone would need to kill someone for their passport when you can just steal their bag with the passport in it. Unlikeliness of the posted article aside, I still think the conversation worth having. Especially given that the standard Packer/Murdoch media is so utterly uninterested in persueing the implications of mossad agents posing as members of Commonwealth nations.

This is something that will redound on anyone who travels. It's entirely possible that the visa free travel that you've become used to could be revoked thanks entirely to Israeli agents abusing your passport.

Do a google search using 'mossad agents canadian passport assassination'. See how many times they've been caught assassinating people whilst posing as Canadians. See how many times Canada has protested. See how Israel sort-of apologised and then continued right on doing it. See how you didn't see any of this covered in the standard Packer/Murdoch/government media.

That's why these conversations, even if they end up spattered in the mad ravings of racists from both sides, are worth having.

And to the people of New Zealand - Don't worry there are plenty of people in Oz who are appalled and ashamed at where this country is going and wish we had someone with half the integrity and balls of Helen Clark. We look forward to the next election. Me, I'm in a punishing mood.

"So what did happen in Sydney? Did they turn and look backwards and were turned into pillars of salt or something? Am I old enough to know?"

I heard that SIM blew themselves uo in solidarity with palestinian terrorists, and Iraqi suicide bombers...just like Adolph in the bunker...shoot the dog, kill the wife and take the pill!

Why do you assume the "Packer/Murdoch media" didn't cover this? In fact the article above, which I am upset about lifted MOST of the text from an SMH article (yes, it's Fairfax but you get the point). The problem is that the poster added his own COMPLETELY UNSUBSTANTIATED LIES about murder etc. as part of ongoing anti-Israel smear campaign.

Despite ridiculous conspiracy theorist claims that all the anti-Semitic articles plaguing Sydney IMC are in fact posted by Jews, it's abundantly clear that there are REAL anti-Semites, bigots, racists and arseholes spamming the wire (and then insisting as usual that is all the Jews' fault). To the point where I ask what is the point of an unmoderated newswire.

The article at the top of this page is a blood libel. Disgusting!

" Despite ridiculous conspiracy theorist claims that all the anti-Semitic articles plaguing Sydney IMC are in fact posted by Jews, it's abundantly clear that there are REAL anti-Semites, bigots, racists and arseholes spamming the wire (and then insisting as usual that is all the Jews' fault). To the point where I ask what is the point of an unmoderated newswire."

There's a deeper problem...Portland IM is heavily moderated...so moderated, that any articles posted supporting Israel, or against anti-semitism are censored, while articles which blame jews for everything from tooth decay to global warming are left for all to see...
the bias is in the censorship (moderation)...the agenda is pushed and propaganda is offered as "news"

I have a problem with the regular media both in the specific and the general. In the specific, what we know is that a four man squad of mossad agents attempted to illegally obtain a New Zealand passport. Apart from that one article in the Herald, which was as measured as any other article discussing the activities of terrorists the media did not follow this story. Nobody ever asked Philip Ruddock the obvious (and not so obvious) questions. Things like - Mr Ruddock, are you seriously suggesting that these mossad spies, some of whom were based in Sydney, wouldn't have tried to obtain Australian passports? Mr Ruddock, you say that Australian passports have "a range of measures to ensure a high degree of integrity". Are you suggesting that New Zealand passports don't? What sort of tinpot country do you think New Zealand is? Mr Ruddock, are you aware that mossad has assassinated people in the Middle East on numerous occasions posing as Canadians, once using a 1000 kg bomb that destroyed an entire building killing 15?

To say that the media did cover this story is disingenuous. Apart from a few very gentle articles in the SMH nobody persued this. Nobody. Me, I didn't see a single TV show that asked if mossad agents had ever attempted to illegally obtain an Australian passport. And the question is SO obvious. But nobody would touch it. Perhaps you read the letter I posted on the Sydney site that the SMH wouldn't print. Was that a nutbar letter? Was I asking unreasonable questions? Was I raving deliriously? But that letter was NEVER going to get printed. And this is Fairfax. Packer and Murdoch, Ha! Even SBS, whom I admire tremendously, suggested that the agents wanted the NZ passport for the 'entre' it would provide. What? Like it's a platinum mastercard or something? You wave your NZ passport around and you get a better seat at restaurants. Comedy! Those passports are to provide cover for assassins.

Perhaps what we really need is a posting that details the history of Israeli assassinations abroad. It goes back some thirty years. This is the background that's required to put this NZ passport brouhaha in perspective. It's exactly what we're talking about. How can we have a sensible discussion otherwise? But no sensible discussion is possible. That's why we end up in obscure news groups putting up with ranting nutbars spitting invective in every direction discussing silly hypotheses. This conversation is NEVER going to happen in the standard press. So, here we are, we've travelled from the specific to the general. Anybody out there who wants to know how the media functions generally, in relation to any discusssion about Israel, need only go to fair.com or wrmea.com. Terrific websites.

But otherwise, it's an absolute gold-plated certainty that any discussion relating to any perfidy on the part of Israel no matter how calmly discussed or reasonable in intent will inevitably result in claims of anti-semitism. No comment will be too rational, no question too germane that it won't warrant an hysterical response. Me, I'd like to have a calm and rational discussion as to the nature of Israel's foreign policies but between the two extremes of the standard media all looking the other way and crazy nutbars screaming hysterically I don't think it's possible.

" will inevitably result in claims of anti-semitism"

Hey, how come anti-semites are so afraid of being called anti-semites?
I know...they're controlled by the JEWS!@!@!!!!! LMFAO!!

This was the letter I sent to the editor of the SMH. Really I sent it as an act of bloody-mindedness knowing full well that it would never get printed. Perhaps I'd have had more luck with Murdoch, ha ha ha.

To The Editor,

Mossad has a long history of using Commonwealth passports. Two particular events are especially noteworthy.

In 1997 two Mossad agents attempted to assassinate Hamas member Khaled Meshal in Jordan. The agents were captured and were holding Canadian passports bearing the names Shawn Kendall and Barry Beads. None other than Benjamin Netanyahu stepped into arrange the release of the two agents. He did this by freeing the now also-assassinated Sheik Yassin. Canada complained vociferously and recalled their ambassador. Israel apologised and promised never to do it again. However in 2002 three men again using Canadian passports participated in the assassination of Sheik Salah Shehadeh in Gaza. This attack using a 1000 kg bomb destroyed an apartment building and resulted in the death of fifteen innocent residents.

Now that the countries in which Israel wishes to conduct assassinations view all Canadians as possible Mossad agents it's New Zealand's turn to provide cover. But I'm sure Mossad wouldn't even dream of using Australian passports. The very idea!

yours,

my name and address

PS. Perhaps it's best if we don't talk about it. What do you think Letters Editor? Having Australians and New Zealanders viewed as possible assassins is a small price to pay for allowing Mossad hitmen to carry on unimpeded, don't you think? A trifle, certainly not worth having a discussion about.

"Hey, how come anti-semites are so afraid of being called anti-semites?
I know...they're controlled by the JEWS!@!@!!!!! LMFAO!!"

I'll happily admit I have no idea what this means. But I'd just like to say I don't know this fellow, nor did I pay him to make my point for me. It's simply fortuitous to the point of irony. Thanks 'Anti-Semites R Us'. Has anyone got anything to say on the matter of Mossad agents using Australian passports? Any grown-ups out there?

I am the the US and was trying to read the controversial article on SIM but can't connect.
I can vouch that in the States there have been enough Mossad agents caught in suspicious situations, nabbed by honest local law enforcement and when released to INS are quietly returned to Israel. Media blackout on this and other questionable connections keep popping up like a serial nightmare. No public discussion is allowed here in the USA. There is presently legislation written by Israeli lobbying groups and processed through their senator agents to make saying anything that makes Jews or Israelis feel bad a crime. So much for the truth in the land of the fee and home of the slave.
All I can say is at least NZ's Helen is trying to protect her people and at present is not under the sway of the Global Crime Syndicate that is behind all this terrorism. Whether they used Mossad, CIA, or MI6 for their false flag operations one should always rememeber the first question in a crimal investigation...."Who benefits?"

"There is presently legislation written by Israeli lobbying groups and processed through their senator agents to make saying anything that makes Jews or Israelis feel bad a crime."

LOL!!!! Those MOSSAD agents are good...real good...they're making you look like a paranoid idiot...again!

""There is presently legislation written by Israeli lobbying groups and processed through their senator agents to make saying anything that makes Jews or Israelis feel bad a crime."
LOL!!!! Those MOSSAD agents are good...real good...they're making you look like a paranoid idiot...again!"

For details, as opposed to personal invective and sarcasm, click here - http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/04/64467.html

Also it occurs to me that there are people out there who consider themselves to be on sentinel duty. It's their task to spend all day trawling through websites the political viewpoint of which they disagree with utterly. I suspect that 'Man those guys are good' and 'Anti-Semites R Us' is the same person. Just guessing of course. I suspect he goes to other progressive sites that he also can't stand and does the same thing there. I also suspect he never takes part in anything resembling a sensible discussion. He just points out, unintelligibly, how everyone is a loony. Honestly what is LOL and LMFAO and why would anyone think the English language needs this? Would anyone think I was far off the mark if I concluded he's a teenager? Anyway guy, whoever you are, you'd be much better served if you were to go out the back and have a kick of the footy. Sitting at a computer looking for people to heap shit on is no way to live. Honestly.

You summarily claim that: "what we know is that a four man squad of mossad agents.."

How do you know this when they weren't charged with espionage, there has been no comment from ISrael and it is just as likely, if not highly likely they were regular con-men or organised criminals?

Oh that's right, you know something the rest of us including NZ Judicial and Law-Enforcement systems don't right? Sure. Never let facts get in the way of a bit of Israel conspiracy right?

Guy, you're being comedic surely? Are you seriously suggesting to me that New Zealand recalled its ambassador and suspended diplomatic ties on account of two grifters? Ha ha ha ha. Are you nuts?

But never mind that, let's just cut to the chase. This from today's NZ Herald -

"She [NZ PM Helen Clarke] said the case involved far more than simply criminal behaviour by two individuals.

"The Israeli agents attempted to demean the integrity of the New Zealand passport system and could have created considerable difficulties for New Zealanders presenting their passports overseas in future," she said."

Gee Whiz, nazihunter, you seem hellbent on denying the bleeding obvious. Where is your head at? What piece of plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face evidence of Israeli malfeasance would you not be prepared to call conspiracy theory? Really, I'd be curious if you can name for me any event, just one, in Israel's history that you thought deserved condemnation. Anything? If you can't then you're telling me that Israel stands alone as the only country in the world with a spotless record. You tell me guy.

Bearing in mind Helen Clark's Government has never been particularly friendly to Israel her actions do not surprise me.

My point was not about her actions, rather yours, passing off as fact, what is as yet only speculation.

That point remains.

Is that it? Is that the best you can do? Mate, why don't you just insist that up is down and black is white. You've certainly convinced me of one thing and that is there's no point talking to you.

No wonder you change your name regularly. So you can trick people into talking to you. You might want to question your assumption that in amongst all of these endless and tedious conflicts you get into with people here that its their fault, that you're misunderstood, that everyone else it wrong. Because delusion in matters such as these are deep at the core of one's persona and as you get older they hardened into mental problems. Initially it can be a bit of a lark but later it ain't. Some people are capable of seeing this coming and other people don't and subsequently become desperately unhappy misanthropists at odds with the world.

You're on your own on this one guy. Me, if I get a whiff that I'm talking to you, the conversation is over. Adieu.

Mossad agent linked to Asia scam
By Craig Skehan
July 19, 2004

The fugitive Israeli Mossad intelligence agent Zev Barkan has been dealing with Asian criminal gangs to obtain Australian and other passports stolen in Asia, a New Zealand aid worker has said.

Barkan has been named by New Zealand authorities as the kingpin in a passport scam for which two Israelis with Australian links were jailed for six months last week in Auckland.

One of the jailed men, Eli Cara, 50, had his rented home in Turramurra raided by ASIO in March. A short time later, he was arrested in New Zealand.

The New Zealand Government has named Barkan, Cara and the other convicted man, Uriel Kelman, as Mossad agents.

Barkan fled New Zealand before police swooped. There are unconfirmed reports that Barkan, allegedly using a fraudulent Canadian passport, has since made visits to North Korea.

The New Zealand aid worker, who has intelligence connections in Asia, said Barkan was also connected to an Israeli security company operating out of Thailand.

Advertisement

Advertisement
"He goes to Laos, Cambodia, Burma and Thailand and deals with gangs who rob tourists of their valuables and passports," the aid worker said.

"Barkan is mostly interested in passports and there have been a number of Australian passports."

Intelligence analysts in New Zealand believe Barkan, a former navy diver in the Israeli Defence Force, was trying to secure a "clean" passport for use in a sensitive Israeli undercover operation in the region, less risky than a forged passport.

The Herald has also been told that Barkan had grown up in Washington as Zev Bruckenstein, where his father was director of religious studies at a synagogue.

I have no problem if you don't want to talk to me.

As for posting under multiple names? Sure. Whatever. Does your tinfoil-hat get hot in the summer?

Why do I get the feeling you never studied the rules of evidence...

H Nazi you are a worthless turd.
You zionazis are a great example of human garbage that needs to be taken OUT ! !

EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT YOUR mossad shit-head are up to cause their frankly not to smart, they keep getting caught cause basically you zioNazis are imbeciles.
A great example is how you stupid fucks just got busted in NZ for robbing the guy in the wheel chair you slime balls are pathetic losers.

Look you son-of-bitchs where just told to take down you illegal wall BY THE WHOLE WORLD OK

You are proven lunatic-criminals so its worthless to talk to dumb-asses like you but the next time the people of the world rise up and SMACK YOU LUNATIC ZIONAZIS DOWN the whole world will all be laughing when your kind starts winning about you being abused

Thanks for another wonderful contribution to the site and humanity.

Actually, he was never robbed nor did he ever come into contact with the Israelis, but why let that get in the way of Israel bashing eh?

Anyway, we all know <a href="http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/l/leon-klinghoffer.html"how people in wheelchairs should be treated right?

How can ' Nazihunter' be such a strong supporter of israel?
Doesn't he know that the jews were behind Hitler?

I am well aware of the tactics YOU, my Zionist ' Nazihunter' ( HA! ) , use to quiet anyone who attempts to expose any of your subversive acts.

If the person is a gentile, you cry, "you're anti-Semitic," which is nothing more than a smokescreen to hide your actions.

But if a Jew is the person doing the exposing, you resort to other tactics:

* First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution.

* If the information starts reaching too many people, you ridicule the information and the person or persons giving the information.

* If that doesn't work, your next step is character assassination. If the author or speaker hasn't been involved in sufficient scandal, you are adept at fabricating a scandal against the person or persons.

* If none of these are effective, you are known to resort to physical attacks.

But NEVER do you try to prove the information wrong.

So, before you commence efforts to silence me, I offer this challenge:

You Zionists assemble a number of Zionist Jews and witnesses to support your position; and I will assemble a like number of anti- Zionist, pro-American jews and witnesses.

Then, the Zionists and anti-Zionists will state their positions and debate the material in this book as well as related material -- and the debate WILL BE HELD ON PUBLIC TELEVISION.

Let's explore the information both sides can present and let the American people decide for themselves if the information is true or false.

ISN'T THAT A FAIR CHALLENGE?

Certainly, you will willingly accept the challenge if what I have written is false.

But if you resort to crying "Lies, all lies" and refuse to debate, you will, in effect, be telling the American people that what I have written here are the true facts.

-- Jack Bernstein

J e w i s h A n t i - Z i o n i s t O r g a n i z a t i o n s

Here is a list of Jewish anti-Zionist organizations. Whenever a pro- occupation person pretends to speak in the name of all Jews, just recite this list and they will have to pipe down.

1.. Jews NOT Zionist
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

2.. Jewish Peace Fellowship
http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org/index.htm

3.. Neturei Karta Homepage
http://www.nkusa.org

4.. Yesh Gvul, The movement for IDF men refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories.
http://www.diak.org/

5.. Gush Shalom
http://www.gush-shalom.org/

6.. Bat Shalom, Israeli Women for Peace
http://www.batshalom.org/

7.. Deutsch-Isrelischer Arbeitskreis fur Frieden im Nahen Osten (DIAK)
http://www.batshalom.org/

8.. Eda Haredit, A hundred thousand anti-Zionist Hasidim all at one place.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/satmar.html

9.. B'Tselem
http://www.btselem.org/

10.. "Occupied Territory"
http://www.occupied.org/

11.. Rabbis for Human Rights
http://www.rhr.israel.net/indexa.html

12.. Not in Our Name Coalition
http://www.diak.org/not_in_our_name.htm

13.. Oz v'Shalom - Netivot Shalom (religious Zionist anti-Occupation)
http://www.ariga.com/ozveshalom/index.asp

14.. The Hidden History of Zionism by Ralph Schoenman:
http://www.balkanunity.org/mideast/english/zionism/

15.. Association for Civil Rights in Israel
http://www.nif.org/

Gosh, you seem awfully afraid of me for some reason. Not sure why, I'm mostly harmless. I don't run around summarily calling INTELLIGENT debaters anti-Semites, merely trolls like you who really ARE anti-Semites.

Yes, there ARE Jews who are dissident. So what? In fact Jews are ALLOWED to have a free opinion. That's why Ha'aretz exists and why Jews can protest against their Government if they want.

Want to know why?

Because Jews don't issue Fatwas!

So what's your point? You don't have one.

My fascination with what's wrong with Israel grows whenever I read threads like this. I would always take a story like this with a grain of salt, but when the crazy cover-up denials fly out of the woodwork, I have to look a lot more closely. Things like finding the article somewhere else with details changed are supposed to discredit it...WHO CARES? I can do the same to any story on CNN. 
I try to understand stories like this in the bigger context of what's going on. Right now, the world has ruled against israel and israel has told them to go fuck themselves. Right now Israel is behaving like an enemy of the world in a really open way. Why on earth would anybody think that they would not be doing it clandestinely???

The real terror masters are revealed. Doesn't this put a significant question mark over the Bali bomb? Looks like the slime balls are finally being revealed for what they are; "Masters of Deceit". The Mossad motto is By Way Of Deception Thall Shalt Do War.

9/11? Madrid? Bali? I can't think of a single Arab or Muslim who has benefitted from these acts but I can think of one country that has benefitted massively.

"Right now Israel is behaving like an enemy of the world in a really open way."

Why should that be suprising? the "world" has told Israel that defnding it's citizens from suicide bombers is a bad idea...I'd say "F**k the world too!
Instead of wanking on and on about Israels efforts at self defense, would the world be better off telling the Arabs to negotiate for peace?
The BLOODY intifada is over, and the Usual Suspects lost another round...

" THANKS for the link, MIKE!"

Yeah, thanks!!! Birthright Israel is a pretty good site!
You might try Little Green Footballs too., and women in Green as well!
http://www.womeningreen.org

Klinghoffer was thrown overboard by Abu Abas ..no?

I heard that Greenpeace was after him ( before he croaked )
for irreparably polluting the ocean when he threw the little bastard in the ocean.

>>> Yeah, thanks!!! Birthright Israel is a pretty good site!

It's kewl because Brooklyn Born fundamentalist killers are entitled to a state-sanctioned and deity "covenented" "birthright" to "return" to where they've never been inthe first place!

But Palestinians have no right to return to their birthplace.

Pretty kewl, huh?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

The backlash against Israel in the USA is HUGE. You don't get media coverage because of the Zionazi lock on the American news media, but ask your average American how he feels about Israel and you'll get a stream of invective that would melt your PC.

The general feeling here in the Heartland of America is that if we started treating the Jews here the way they treat the Palestinians in the Occupied Territory things would change over there in a New York minute. It's definitely on the agenda. This time next year, as they flee I$rael in droves, Sharon will frantically call for American Jews to migrate to I$rael "because it is safer."

He'll be right.

" The general feeling here in the Heartland of America is that if we started treating the Jews here the way they treat the Palestinians in the Occupied Territory things would change"

Well Foxy... if Jews were blowing up innocent American citizens like the Arabs do...you'd have every right to treat them the way you want to...fact is Jews don't do that kind of thng, while Molsem seem to have a religious duty do do so...(9/11, Bali, Madrid...ad nauseum)
By the way...you speak for a minoriuty in the Heartland,m because most of us here know who the murderers are, and why Israel is defending herself....thanks for playing though...

"Well Foxy... if Jews were blowing up innocent American citizens like the Arabs do...you'd have every right to treat them the way you want to...fact is Jews don't do that kind of thng, while Molsem seem to have a religious duty do do so...(9/11, Bali, Madrid...ad nauseum)"

Typical disinformation from a Zionist who doesn't represent the entire Jews (no, not the wannabe jew from Khazar and East European). Always attempt to blame their crimes to Arabs because Mossad tactics are well known to frame Muslims.

9/11:- "Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you how this information is gathered. This information is classified" quoted by a officier in Carl Cameron on Fox News. Zionist, you always hide this fact given your incapacity to openly refute these arguments.

Bali: - Obviously the bomb is originally from military. Attempt to frame Muslim as usual. The crater evidence pointed out that the bomb can only be used by US agent or military.

Madrid:- your fool. Spanish people didn't bite as they knew this fake terrorism will only benefit the zionists like you. It didin't stop hispanics to kick Aznar out and withdraw their troops from Iraq.

Now your zionist state build a ghetto wall to further steal land from Palestinians. Don't you have a shame? Now your zionists talk to attack either Syria and Iran. Yet, you got your got kicked by Syria, Egypt and Lebanese. The truth is your zionist army is a bunch of coward when they face equal opponent. Go ahead, invade them.

So...Jews are bad. Is that what were saying here.?
jews did 9/11..? next you'l say it was jews who killed themselvs in ww2 (6,000,000 suicides) i guess.

I guess if jews play as alkeda it is to infiltrate and destroy from within.

Although I agree that Zionist methods are extreem.
But we all have our exreemists don't we now?..........

some one said once make love not war...

"So...Jews are bad. Is that what were saying here.?
jews did 9/11..? next you'l say it was jews who killed themselvs in ww2 (6,000,000 suicides) i guess. "

Why are you on defensive? If your read my comment, you will understand. Explain why Sephradic and Fallasha are ill threated by the so-called Jews who rules Occupied Palestine ("Israel")?

Now you put your WW2 rhetorics on your comment while your ignore about the other holocausts that were committed like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresnel and the 20 millions Russians who gave their lifes to repell Hitler's army. When the like Ernst Zundel questionned about that 6 millions killed jews number giving the number of them at that time, you are unable to publicly prove them wrong. Instead, you arrest them as you have something to hide.

Next time, provide a better argument.

For a different angle on the link between Al Phaedra and the western intelligence agencies google on "Shaylergate".

This is the story of a British intelligence agent who was hauled through the British courts, where testimony was presented that Al Qaida was working as a contractor for western intelligence (to do a ht on Saddam Hussein - that'd be the link Bush id forever spouting) much more recently than you may imagine.

You may wish not to do this if you live in Britain, as Bliar has slapped an almost unprecedented 100 year D-notice on the proceedings.

The last bit of this is not factual -

"Well Foxy... if Jews were blowing up innocent American citizens like the Arabs do...you'd have every right to treat them the way you want to...fact is Jews don't do that kind of thng"

Has anyone here not heard of the USS Liberty? Go to - http://www.uss.liberty.com and you tell me if jews don't do that kind of thing. How about the Lavon affair? Go to http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=%26%238216%3BLavon%20Affair%26%238217%3B%20still%20riles%20Israel&intcategoryid=5&SearchOptimize=Jewish%20NewsS and tell me again. What I find amazing is that these absolutely extraordinary pieces of history are completely unknown. We all know about the USS Cole in which one speedboat killed a handful of people but we never heard of the Liberty in which the Israelis napalmed, strafed and topedoed a US naval vessel for an hour and then machine-gunned the lifeboats for good measure. Bugger me! How is it possible that nobody ever heard of this? What must one conclude knowing that this story will never get shown on TV?

And anyone who wants to tell me that the Liberty was an accident, don't waste your breath. Tell it to the surviving crew of the Liberty and they'll tell you to get fucked.

As for thinking Jewish people are possessed of some spotless superior virtue, Ha! Israel has clearly demonstrated a pattern of making terrorist attacks which they blame on others in the hope that a misdirected revenge will crush their perceived enemies.

Anyone who thinks such acts are excuseable is an evil social darwinist shithead who really needs to wake up to themselves.

Please, please, keep digging. This is so important. You are on top of something the whole world needs to know and understand, especially us stupid yanks.
Thanks and God Bless.
Chris Hardaker

this is just a copy for fair use (non-commercial etc):

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/18/1090089038600.html?oneclick=true

Mossad agent linked to Asia scam
By Craig Skehan
July 19, 2004

The fugitive Israeli Mossad intelligence agent Zev Barkan has been dealing with Asian criminal gangs to obtain Australian and other passports stolen in Asia, a New Zealand aid worker has said.

Barkan has been named by New Zealand authorities as the kingpin in a passport scam for which two Israelis with Australian links were jailed for six months last week in Auckland.

One of the jailed men, Eli Cara, 50, had his rented home in Turramurra raided by ASIO in March. A short time later, he was arrested in New Zealand.

The New Zealand Government has named Barkan, Cara and the other convicted man, Uriel Kelman, as Mossad agents.

Barkan fled New Zealand before police swooped. There are unconfirmed reports that Barkan, allegedly using a fraudulent Canadian passport, has since made visits to North Korea.

The New Zealand aid worker, who has intelligence connections in Asia, said Barkan was also connected to an Israeli security company operating out of Thailand.
Advertisement Advertisement

"He goes to Laos, Cambodia, Burma and Thailand and deals with gangs who rob tourists of their valuables and passports," the aid worker said.

"Barkan is mostly interested in passports and there have been a number of Australian passports."

Intelligence analysts in New Zealand believe Barkan, a former navy diver in the Israeli Defence Force, was trying to secure a "clean" passport for use in a sensitive Israeli undercover operation in the region, less risky than a forged passport.

The Herald has also been told that Barkan had grown up in Washington as Zev Bruckenstein, where his father was director of religious studies at a synagogue.

The Palestinian militant group Hamas has praised New Zealand, saying in a statement it "highly appreciated the daring position of the New Zealand Government against the Zionist entity".

America fought the Communists for over 50 years and who really won?In England, Canada, USA and down under----the commies we fought have taken over our media and government.Take note---all Jews in control are from EAST-BLOCK.Now you know the answer---we lost suckers.In 1954 9 mossad killers staged bombings againist USA to make it appear as Arabs. USS Liberty was bomb by Israel with umarked PTU boats and planes. All colored to ressemble Eygpt. Many dead and injuried.What did USA do----NOTHING!
In our government---most are front men for the zionists---peel the phonie names and religions and you have the Jews in power as in Lenin era.
Try this--is Kerry Jewish?---his grandparents changed their name from KOHN to KERRY and made $$$$$ millions as catholics. So suckers--kiss the commies in power!

The Jews sense of entitlement is way out of hand. Always portraying themselves a perpetual victims. Now that the rest of the world is waking up to the same old Jew ploy, we have staged "anti-semetic" attacks and crys of anti-semite at every critisim of Isreal and the Jews. It's this type of behavior that made jews a target in WW2 and it's the kind of thinking that's making the world call Bullfeces now. Thye always want the U.N to vote in thier favor but as soon as something doesn't go their way, the U.n. is told to mind it's own business.

Next time somebody comes after the Jews, don't think they'll make the mistake of screwing it up this time.

"The Liberty attack was not a deliberate Israeli " you zionazi scum are full of shit read what the sailors INCLUDING THE CAPTAIN on the liberty say THE zionazi back stabbing bastards http://www.ussliberty.org

zionazi scum are fucking retarded if you think people are not aware of your historic treachery thats way you bastard have gotten the boot from every place the vermin have infested. WHY? BECAUSE THESE VIRUS LIKE PLAGUE HAS TRIED TO RP OFF EVERY ONE THE HAVE COME IN CONTACT WITH LIKE A PARASITE
And it about ready to happen again and you only have your thieving back-stabbing money grubbing hook-nosed usury ways to blame I hope all of you rodents get wiped out this time.

Don't you know some jews were behind the Holocaust?

You can see in the Eichmann trial for yourself - documentary footage almost uncut shows survivors and eye witness's screaming at some of the ' Judenrats' also there to give evidence.

" YOU SENT US TO THE OVENS...YOU DID THAT!'

There's one readily demonstrable fact about this article. It's partly plagiarism, partly fabrication and makes specific accusations of murder without a scrap of evidence in support.

Anybody want to take a moment off from the customary shit-flinging, paranoid let's-play-detectives "I know who you really are" nonsense and general parading of vulgar hatefreakery to consider why such an amateurishly concocted bit of phony agitprop is deemed suitable to remain on the newswire?

Exploiting the Palestinian cause again, Leon?

//It's kewl because Brooklyn Born fundamentalist killers are entitled to a state-sanctioned and deity "covenented" "birthright" to "return" to where they've never been in the first place!

Unfortunately, Jews can't move to Mecca because Muslims - some of whom have never been there in their lives (gwarsh!) - want the infidels to stay clear. I guess you have nothing against fundamentalists who strap bombs to themselves to kill JOOZ. The more JOOZ dead the better, eh? The funny thing about the Goldstein incident is that similar attacks made by Palestinian terrorists are so numerous they are not even considered newsworthy. But again, if one JOO does it, the rest of the filthy buggers are to blaim..

//But Palestinians have no right to return to their birthplace.

The funny thing is that most Palestinians in the world today haven't lived a day of their lives in what became Israel.

//http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Another good source of info is a nice little book called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Perhaps you've already read it.

//It's kewl because Brooklyn Born fundamentalist killers are entitled to a state-sanctioned and deity "covenented" "birthright" to "return" to where they've never been in the first place!

Unfortunately, Jews can't move to Mecca because Muslims - some of whom have never been there in their lives (gwarsh!) - want the infidels to stay clear. I guess you have nothing against fundamentalists who strap bombs to themselves to kill JOOZ. The more JOOZ dead the better, eh? The funny thing about the Goldstein incident is that similar attacks made by Palestinian terrorists are so numerous they are not even considered newsworthy. But again, if one JOO does it, the rest of the filthy buggers are to blaim..

//But Palestinians have no right to return to their birthplace.

The funny thing is that most Palestinians in the world today haven't lived a day of their lives in what became Israel.

//http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Another good source of info is a nice little book called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Perhaps you've already read it

"The funny thing is that most Palestinians in the world today haven't lived a day of their lives in what became Israel. "

And the funny thing about most of the Jooz in Israel is that they haven't got a semitic gene in them.

How is this so?

//And the funny thing about most of the Jooz in Israel is that they haven't got a semitic gene in them.

Another adherant to the khazar myth. Care to cite some evidence?

Another adherent to the Israel myth, care to cite some evidence?

Maybe not? Why is that?

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-biblio/toc.html

After 1800 years Jooz have a right of return , even if their ancestors never lived there, but all Palestinian rights are extinguished in less than fifty years?

It's not even a right of return is it? It's a right to steal land you never owned anyway and subject the rightful owners to a genocidal campaign.

Da books boss, da books!

//Another adherent to the Israel myth, care to cite some evidence?

Sure, here we go:

Jews certainly are a distinct ethnic grouping, with their distinctive genetic range and pattern of variation. More important, however, then genetic distinction is the unique spiritual and cultural attitudes of the Jewish people.
-------
There is now new and exciting DNA evidence for common Jewish origin -- not just among Cohanim, the Priestly Class, but among Jews scattered all over the globe.

Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics -- the
study of DNA sequences -- indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile. Despite large geographic distances between the communities and the passage of thousands of years, far removed Jewish communities share a similar genetic profile. This research confirms the common ancestry and common geographical origin of world Jewry.

Jewish men from communities which developed in the Near East -- Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Yemen -- and European Jews have very similar, almost identical genetic profiles.

"Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
(M.F. Hammer, Proc. Nat'l Academy of Science, May 9, 2000)

The basis of this new field of population research is the study of the Y-chromosome, which is passed virtually unchanged from father to son. The rare mutations -- which are changes in the non-coding portion of its DNA -- can serve as markers, which can distinguish peoples. By studying the genetic signatures of various groups, comparisons can be made to determine the genetic relationships between the groups.

Y-chromosome research of the Jewish people began as an outgrowth of the study of Cohanim -- the Jewish priestly family. These studies showed a very high genetic affinity among present- day Cohanim, indicating that they do have a common paternal ancestor, estimated to have lived some 3,000 years ago. (See The Cohanim/DNA Connection)

MOST RECENT RESEARCH

The most recent genetic research consists of obtaining DNA samples, and doing laboratory analysis and comparison of the DNA markers on the Y- chromosome -- which is passed from father to son, and on the mtDNA (mitrocondrial DNA) -- which is passed intact from mother to son and daughter. This genetic anthropology promises to be particularly informative for tracking the history of Jewish populations, and helping to resolve the debate on the origins and migrations of Jewish communities in the Diaspora.

The researchers proposed to answer the question whether the scattered groups of modern Jews can be identified as the descendants of the ancient Hebrews of the Bible, or whether their common ancestry has been diluted through influx of converts and through intermarriage so that little remains of their "Jewish genes."

The complex recorded history of dispersal from the Land of Israel and subsequent residence in and movements between various countries in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East is expected to produce a complex pattern of genetic relationships among Jewish populations as well as between them and the non-Jewish peoples among whom they lived.

The research was based on samples from 29 populations, 7 Jewish, categorized into five major divisions: Jews, Middle- Eastern non-Jews, Europeans, North Africans, and sub-Saharan Africans.

The findings were that most Jewish communities do indeed seem to be genetically similar.

The findings were that most Jewish communities -- long separated from one another in Europe, North Africa, the Near East and the Arabian Peninsula -- do indeed seem to be genetically similar and closely related to one another, sharing a common geographical origin.

These Jewish communities are more closely related to each other and to other Middle Eastern Semitic populations -- Palestinians, Syrians, and Druze -- than to their neighboring non-Jewish populations in the Diaspora.

The results also indicate a low level of admixture (intermarriage, conversion, rape, etc.) into the gene pool of these various Jewish communities.

Among the Jewish communities sampled, North Africans (Moroccans, etc.) were most closely related to Babylonian (Iraqi) Jews. These populations may best represent the paternal gene pool of the ancient Jewish/Hebrew population dating back to the First Temple period, before the Babylonian exile (approx. 2,500 years ago).

The Y-chromosome signatures of the Yemenite Jews are also similar to those of other Jewish and Semitic populations. In contrast, the paternal gene pool of Ethiopian Jews more closely resembles that of non-Jewish Ethiopian men.

ASHKENAZI LINKS

Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.

A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The findings oppose the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars.

The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE.

The researchers are continuing and expanding their studies particularly of the Ashkenazi community. They are hoping that by examining the DNA markers in Jewish populations from different parts of Europe, they will be able to infer the major historical and demographic patterns in Ashkenazi populations.

MIGRATION CLUES

In addition to questions of medical interest, there are many interesting possibilities concerning the origin of Ashkenazi populations and how they migrated in Europe. It seems likely that Jews began to arrive in Europe perhaps 1,000 to 1,200 years ago, when settlement was already sufficiently developed to provide them with opportunities to make a living.

One theory claims that the Jews of Eastern Europe derive predominantly from Jewish migrants from the Rhineland or from Italy, being fairly direct descendants of the original ancient Jewish/ Hebrew populations.

A second theory suggests a northerly migration from the Balkans or from Central Asia, with the possibility of large-scale conversions of Slavs and/or Kuzars to Judaism.

This argument parallels the controversy over the origin and development of Yiddish -- the language of Eastern European Jews. One theory proposes that Jews, migrating from the Rhineland and neighboring regions spoke an old form of German which provided the basis of Yiddish.

Other scholars reject the German origin of Yiddish. These linguists see Yiddish grammar as fundamentally Slavonic, with modern Yiddish developed by incorporating large numbers of German and Hebrew words into the context of a basically Slavic grammar and syntax.

There has not been enough historical evidence to decide between such theories. Now, with the newly developed genetic methods, it is possible to test these ideas, for example to see if there was a significant Slavic contribution to modern Ashkenazic Jewry.

CONTINUING RESEARCH

The researchers plan to continue their research by investigating genetic variation in populations that can trace their Jewish ancestry to localized communities of Europe, in order to better understand the history and development of Ashkenazic Jewry.

The genetic research findings support Jewish tradition -- both written and oral.

These genetic research findings support Jewish tradition -- both written and oral.

After over 1,000 years of history in the Land of Israel, Jews dispersed to many and distant locations throughout the world. Some Jewish exile communities were relatively stable for two millennia -- such as in Babylonia (Iraq) and Persia (Iran). Others developed centuries later, following successive migrations to North Africa and Europe.

All of these communities maintained their Jewish customs and religious observance despite prolonged periods of persecution. Jews remained generally culturally isolated from their host communities. These genetic studies are a testimony to Jewish family faithfulness.

Only the Jewish people in the history of mankind has retained its genetic identity for over 100 generations, while being spread throughout the world -- truly unique and inspiring.

Perhaps, even more unique and inspiring, is that this most unlikely scenario was a prophecy and a promise.

And God shall scatter you among all the peoples from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth... (Deuteronomy 28:64)

And God shall return your captivity and be merciful to you, and will return and gather you from all the nations whither God has scattered you. (Deuteronomy 30:3)

As the natural laws are set before Me, so shall the seed of Israel never cease from being a nation before Me, forever. (Jeremiah 31:36)

If you would like to receive this or other Aish.com features via e-mail, please enter your e-mail address here:

- Rabbi Yaakov HaKohen Kleiman is a lecturer at Aish HaTorah,

Jerusalem, specializing in Temple studies. He is co-director with Rabbi Nachman Kahana, of the Center For Kohanim.

//After 1800 years Jooz have a right of return , even if their ancestors never lived there, but all Palestinian rights are extinguished in less than fifty years?

Can you name another Jewish country in any other part of the world? How about another Arab nation? You know what UNRWA's criteria for a Palestinian refugee is? Someone who has lived for at least 2 YEARS in what is now Israel. Why is that?
Maybe if the Palestinians and their Arab brothers hadn't tried to destroy the State of Israel at its birth, they might still be living in a state called Palestine as per the 1947 Partition Plan.

//It's a right to steal land you never owned anyway and subject the rightful owners to a genocidal campaign.

A genocidal campaign huh? I don't see the crematoria or cattle cars anywhere. The Palestinian population has only been growing since 1967. Uncle Hitler would have been most unimpressed with his zionazis.

To avoid sounding like a hypocrite, you can go back to whatever European dungheap you spawned from and give your house to an Aboriginal family. By your logic, the land belongs to them and them only.

"Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics -- the
study of DNA sequences -- indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile."

No suprise there, the children of Abraham are encouraged to in-breed aren't they?

"Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation."

"These genetic studies are a testimony to Jewish family faithfulness."

There's a law against that kind of thing! Even in Tasmania.

At your source they say "Aish HaTorah's vast network of programs is the vision of American-born Rabbi Noah Weinberg, who founded Aish HaTorah in 1974 to combat alarming assimilation rates."

Your source quotes "Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics " but does not cite who did the research or who funded it. Given the agenda of Aish.com we can safely leave a XXL question mark over the uncited research at this point in time.

Now, back to the Khazars, from your source...

"...Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE. "

"with the possibility of large-scale conversions of Slavs and/or Kuzars to Judaism."

So we know, by your own admission, that there were some large scale conversions to Judaism and that these people now have rights in Palestine that over-ride indigenous Palestinians rights. Is that justice?

I've got three words for you. Psychotic, racist, cult.

"you can go back to whatever European dungheap you spawned from"

Hey, do I detect a note of racism there?

After 1800 years Jews have a right of return , even if their ancestors never lived there, but all Palestinian rights are extinguished in less than fifty years?

Let's see now, we all know that the Romans caused Jews to flee 1800 years ago and Aish.com says that Jews lived in Palestine for about a thousand years before that. At a generous pinch that would take us back to 1500 BC.

So what rights do the people (now called Palestinians) who have lived there since at least 4000 BC have?

It seems that depends on who you ask.

Instead of taking excerpts out of context, how about actually reading the article.

And I suppose the Mizrachi Jews who are indigenous to the region and make up most of Israel's population are also descend from Khazars?

//No suprise there, the children of Abraham are encouraged to in-breed aren't they?

Children of Abraham? I thought they were Khazars?

//Hey, do I detect a note of racism there?

oh no!

//After 1800 years Jews have a right of return , even if their ancestors never lived there, but all Palestinian rights are extinguished in less than fifty years?

You've mentioned that already. Why should you live all nice and comfy when you, by association, have stolen Aborignal land?

//So what rights do the people (now called Palestinians) who have lived there since at least 4000 BC have?

And what makes you think that the current Palestinians are descended from these peoples?
Forget it, I don't want to see another list of whatevertakeyourfancy-ite chieftains.

"Instead of taking excerpts out of context, how about actually reading the article"

Unlike you, I actually read things before opening my mouth. The extracts weren't out of context because the context was the article you posted. Remember?

"And I suppose the Mizrachi Jews who are indigenous to the region and make up most of Israel's population are also descend from Khazars? "

Israel population - 6,199,008 (July 2002 est.)

Ethnic groups:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Age structure:
0-14 years: 26.7% (male 847,591; female 808,399)

15-64 years: 63.4% (male 1,976,539; female 1,954,782)

65 years and over: 9.9% (male 262,781; female 348,916) (2004 est.)

Median age:
total: 29.2 years
male: 28.3 years
female: 30 years (2004 est.)

Source, C.I.A.

"//No suprise there, the children of Abraham are encouraged to in-breed aren't they?

Children of Abraham? I thought they were Khazars?"

Yeah they were encouraged to in-breed too once they joined the cult. The gene pool probably festered and needed an injection of fresh blood.

"//After 1800 years Jews have a right of return , even if their ancestors never lived there, but all Palestinian rights are extinguished in less than fifty years?

You've mentioned that already. Why should you live all nice and comfy when you, by association, have stolen Aborignal land? "

Yup, that's right, it is stolen land.

"//So what rights do the people (now called Palestinians) who have lived there since at least 4000 BC have?

And what makes you think that the current Palestinians are descended from these peoples?"

What makes you think they aren't? Got any evidence?

It is very clear that the rulers of the New World Order, i.e. the owners of the central and major banks and controllers of money have fanaticized the Luciferians who pretend to be Jews and agitated into the creation of Zionist terror. Just read the books by ex-Mossad agents, by Harold Wallace Rosenthal, etc. This post is absolutely correct. The Pharisees are fooling the ordinary Jews and shutting down the voices of Jews Against Zionism.

"Mossad is the root of all Terrorism"

Good Jews, Bad Jews...useful idiots will claim that no matter what the concern...it's THE JEWS...It's the Fake jews controlling the Good Jews...hey...Fake Jews!!! Doesn't that mean they're not Jews at all!!!?
But to anti-semites...all evil stems from Judaism...Therefore...good Jews are actually bad Jews because they do the bidding of evil fake Jews who are really Jews pretending to be Luciferians or something like that...

It's kewl because Brooklyn Born fundamentalist killers are entitled to a state-sanctioned and deity "covenented" "birthright" to "return" to where they've never been in the first place!

“I would have expected a little bit more, I would call it, errr, ‘self-censorship’ on the part of the Israeli media, the same as was deploy…displayed during various phases of the operation Afghanistan by the American media – that’s all I want”.

Holocaust sucks , don't it? Jews frequently booby trap doors...peacefully of course...breaking through walls is a good thing...

Holocaust sucks , don't it?Jews frequently booby trap doors...peacefully of course...breaking through walls is a good thing...

Fortunately, those who continuously portray Middle Easterners as either victims or monsters are losing traction.
Fortunately, there are people of integrity in the region working on solutions, regardless of what the dis-eased minds of various species of Western xenophobes might think.........

Building the Future Middle East

The Members and Staff of the MidEast Web Group

Introduction

The Middle East is our home. We want to build a beautiful home, a safe and prosperous one for us and our children. However, without cooperation between peoples, there is no hope and no life for any of us. This can only happen after we change our ways of thinking about many things. We need to overcome the effects of decades of conflict, separation and hate propaganda. The MidEast Web Group will use the Web, the Internet and other media to promote and publicize dialog, people-to-people and educational projects, and to make non-violence, tolerance and rapprochement key values in our societies. For charitable organizations and dialog groups, MidEast Web is a shared publicity resource - and a place to find resources to help them in their work. For everyone, it will be a service and, we hope, a useful, interesting and entertaining source of information.

The major goals of MidEast Web are:

Popularizing Humanitarian Values
Building a Common Reality
Building a Human Network
Amplifying the Work of Others
Reaching Everyone
Building Friendships and Skills
Humanizing the "Enemy"
The Future Must be Better than the Past

If you don’t find what you are looking for at our Web site, have patience. MidEast Web is being built slowly. It will always be "under construction" and it is your place to air your views, share your thoughts and help make a difference. Please contact us if you can help.

Popularizing Humanitarian Values

Some of our peoples have been taught to hate each other for many years. They do not hear much in the school system or media to change these perceptions. Cooperative projects, and even contacts with "the enemy," are considered suspect. They are not acceptable to most people. This is enforced by ignorance propagated in the media and racist stereotypes about the culture of the enemy. A steady diet of hate has given us all indigestion of the mind. Years of national struggle have made violence and assertiveness paramount values in many Middle Eastern societies. What is our image of the "manly man?" What is our image of "the enemy?" A great effort must be made to humanize our image of our neighbors, and to make nonviolence, tolerance and neighborly relations acceptable values and norms of conduct in this region.

Building a Common Reality

Isolation and years of conflict have placed a wall between the two peoples. Each lives in a different dimension and a different reality, with different history and a different view of current events, because the information they have been getting is different. The Mid-East Web site will help break through the wall of non-communication and create a common reality and a basis for common understanding, by providing balanced news and historical sources, as well as a panorama of views. The information will be valuable to students of the conflict and interested bystanders, as well as to citizens of the Middle East.

Building a Human Network

Human contacts between peoples in different countries of the Middle East, despite physical, language and psychological barriers, are an essential ingredient in building the peace. Initial contacts for rapprochement between politicians cannot really come from nowhere. In the Middle East, both the peace with Egypt and the peace process with the Palestinians were facilitated by informal contacts of volunteer organizations and academic persons meeting in various capacities. Grass roots support for rapprochement must be built in order to win popular approval. Even after the formal peace is made, there must be a "support network" that will help both make it a reality.

A veteran peacemaker explained it this way:

In any conflict, history will eventually provide an opportunity for resolution at the political level. When that happens, we must be ready with a network of human contacts between the groups who can work together to implement the political solution and make it work.

MidEast Web is building such a network through e-mail and face-to-face contacts between individuals and groups.

Amplifying the Work of Others

MidEast Web will help build dialog and promote education for coexistence by providing publicity for these projects and by providing resources: games and information for education; information about where to find dialog partners, topics and advice about how to start a dialog project and a news letter for dialog groups. We will also present articles, poems and other materials created by projects for young people that promote peace education and dialog.

Reaching Everyone

Numerous dialog and education projects, as well as interfaith organizations do wonderful work both in the Middle East and abroad. The value of these projects as models for cooperation, for how people should behave as neighbors, would be multiplied many times over if the general public knew about them. How many times a day do you hear about Coca-Cola? How many times a month do you hear about violence in the Middle East? Now think how many times a year the average person hears about cooperative efforts in the Middle East. How many such projects can you name? If you live in the Middle East, you probably remember more names of battles and disasters. This is one thing we need to change.

In order to change attitudes, we need to bring our message to a mass audience. Internet is only one means of doing so - the least expensive. To reach a mass audience, we must:

Be neutral - We must not be agents or spokesmen for one side or the other. MidEast Web is being built by people of all faiths from many countries. We are all united in common values of decency, non-violence and neighborly respect. When we come to MidEast Web, we try to leave behind, as much as possible, our opinions about different conflicts, and to break the habit of finding blame and "finger pointing." We will publicize different views, so long as they are honest, well presented, informed and presented in a non-inflammatory way.

Be useful and interesting - We do not have a captive audience. People come to us because we provide them with information that they need or want: maps, history, reliable and accurate background information, resources for dialog, news, a viewpoint they cannot get anywhere else, a personal story, eyewitness accounts of history, poems...

Publicize our site - MidEast Web is not just a site that tells about the work of an organization. It is in large part the work itself. We invest considerable resources in getting people to MidEast Web. MidEastWeb is a success - so material placed on this site is seen by thousands of people each day.

Building Friendships and Skills

Much of the work of MidEast Web will be done by volunteers - people of different nationalities and faiths working together to create materials. Cooperation builds friendship. We hope that students will help us build this site, and we hope to offer resources to schools in Palestine and Israel, including training seminars, to help build technical and language skills and make the Web available to a larger circle of people

Humanizing the "Enemy"

The "enemy" takes on demonic proportions in any conflict. Each side may imagine the other with horns and a tail. The enemy may be imagined as engaging in terrorism and sadism most of their waking lives. In reality, the enemy are people quite like their enemies. They (We) eat, they get married, they have children and hopes for the future. They have insights and talents and foibles. They mourn the losses of loved ones. They read books and enjoy a good joke now and then. These simple truths must be brought home to all parties in any conflict through personal contacts, exchange of small talk and jokes and the trivia of life, through accounts of personal tragedies and loss, and of joys and disappointments, through working together, and eating together and relaxing together, as well as through exposure to culture and wisdom of others.

MidEast Web will help build a common language and respect for neighbors by presenting aspects of the cultural life and religion of different MidEast peoples. This will help remove the element of strangeness from other cultures, give respect for the teachings of peace and decency common to all the great religions and teachings, and help motivate people to find out more about their neighbors. We can all be enriched by art from Kuwait, architecture from Jordan, stories from Egypt and Israel and Palestine. We will also help people learn about each other through personal contacts, working together and sharing our lives and thoughts.

The Future Must be Better than the Past

The Middle East is our home, the home of many peoples. Most of us are children of Abraham in spirit and according to our religions. If we learn to live together, we can have a beautiful home. It can be built in splendor and use the wisdom and skills of our peoples to create a great life for us and our children. Our lives can be enriched by the multitude of cultures and the great histories of our peoples. This should be the main goal of everyone in the Middle East. The past can be a great resource. Let’s understand the past, and feel each other's pain and pride, but let us leave the bad parts behind us. Let’s devote our scarce energies and scarce resources to build the future together.

Please spread the word by linking to this page, and distribute it by e-mail and print. Tell people how to find us:
URL: http://www.mideastweb.org

Still, I guess for some it's much more fun to spew abuse at each other.

Isn't it?

"Popularizing Humanitarian Values

Some of our peoples have been taught to hate each other for many years. They do not hear much in the school system or media to change these perceptions. Cooperative projects, and even contacts with "the enemy," are considered suspect. They are not acceptable to most people. This is enforced by ignorance propagated in the media and racist stereotypes about the culture of the enemy. A steady diet of hate has given us all indigestion of the mind. Years of national struggle have made violence and assertiveness paramount values in many Middle Eastern societies. What is our image of the "manly man?" What is our image of "the enemy?" A great effort must be made to humanize our image of our neighbors, and to make nonviolence, tolerance and neighborly relations acceptable values and norms of conduct in this region. "

Their best response is a strawman and sewer metaphors, complete with xenophobically loaded language.

"Spreading the Feces of Zion"

"this is the shit that Nigel wants goyim to eat"

No surprise, no disappointment.

"Still, I guess for some it's much more fun to spew abuse at each other.

Isn't it?"

That's what they're programmed to do. As well as heap derision on those who seek solutions.

Moving on......

==========================
More Chaos in Palestinian Society - PALESTINIANS HAVE ONLY BAD CHOICES as the long-feared pot of chaos begins to boil over.

The Israeli Security Barrier and the ICJ - The ICJ opinion has turned the barrier into AN ANTI-ZIONIST ISSUE, making it difficult to rally support for changing the route and alleviating real humanitarian problems.
======================================

Perhaps someone could else could ask Nigel why Palestinians have "only bad choices"....

Perhaps someone could ask Leon CIArter why he didn't simply provide a link so readers could investigate that question for themselves. I guess it's more fun to play personality games.

Nigel Irving for Zion
by anti-zionism: a human rights obligation Tuesday August 03, 2004 at 04:20 AM

===================================
eat shit for zion
by chosen feces and urine Monday August 02, 2004 at 05:57 AM

this is the shit that Nigel of zIonMC wants goyim to eat:

==========================
More Chaos in Palestinian Society - PALESTINIANS HAVE ONLY BAD CHOICES as the long-feared pot of chaos begins to boil over.

The Israeli Security Barrier and the ICJ - The ICJ opinion has turned the barrier into AN ANTI-ZIONIST ISSUE, making it difficult to rally support for changing the route and alleviating real humanitarian problems.
======================================

"Please spread the word!"
http://www.mideastweb.org

Perhaps someone else could ask Nigel why Palestinians have "only bad choices"....
======================================

Perhap's someone can explain why this comment was censored 4 times, and STILL nigel can't explain why Palestinians only have BAD CHOICES....

It seems that Leon wants me to spoonfeed him information on topics which - as someone who *cough* is so concerned *cough* about the plight of the Palestinians - he should be familiar with. Of course, Leon doesn't require such spoonfeeding at all and is simply playing games and providing bait. No matter! I'll bite - it will be interesting to see what sort of hooks our most famous resident fake opposition to Zionism has concocted.

"Perhap's someone can explain why this comment was censored 4 times,......"

I didn't pull them, but any reasonable reader/contributer to MIM who is familiar with Leon CIArters antics here over the years will certainly understand why they might have been pulled. A small insight into the mindset of this character can be viewed here http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=71375

".......and STILL nigel can't explain why Palestinians only have BAD CHOICES...."

An attempt at flattery? Unlikely. Leon has taken a few words from the preview comments on an article out of context. While I have discussed that issue many times, Leon seems to be ignoring the fact that it was not me who wrote the article from http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000281.htm - reprinted in it's entirety below:

More Chaos in Palestinian Society

07/19/2004

UN Envoy Terje Roede Larsen's assessment that the Palestinian Authority is about to collapse and has made no progress in fighting terrorism should not have been news to anyone, since Palestinian and Israeli sources have been saying the same thing for months. Palestinian UN envoy Nasser Al-Kidwa, a nephew of Yasser Arafat, insisted that Larsen's report is incorrect. Palestinian Authority spokesman Nabil Abu-Rodeineh prompty declared Larsen personna non-grata in Palestine, and likewise denied that there were any real problems in the PNA.

UN envory Nasser Al-Kidwa later insisted that Larsen was not banned in PNA, but the ban was apparently repeated. It is safe to say that nobody knows what would happen if Larsen tried to enter Palestinian areas, but the tragicomic fiasco allows people to draw their own conclusions about the state of order in Palestine.

If anyone still had any doubts about the state of Palestinian society, the chaos erupted into violence. Gaza police chief Ghazzi al-Jabali was kidnapped and then released, with the agreement that he would resign and be tried for corruption. Later five French citizens were kidnapped and later released. Yasser Arafat responded with some questionable reforms, putting his nephew Musa Arafat (Arafat has a good supply of nephews) in charge of security in Gaza. Fateh gunmen then marched on Musa Arafat's headquarters and evicted him after a gun battle, after which a large demonstration called for real reforms. Palestinian PM Ahmed Qurei resigned. Arafat rejected the resignation, but Qurei said he is resigning anyhow. Today (Monday) Arafat appeared momentarily to cave in to demands that he fire Musa Arafat, but late reports said was not quite so.

The kidnappers were members of the violent Fateh Al-Aqsa brigades, supposed to be especially loyal to Arafat, but some Israeli and Palestinian analysts claim that the trouble is probably being stirred up by Palestinian security boss Mohamed Dahlan, who is interested in reform. It is equally likely that the riots are in part a reaction to the results of local elections in Gaza, which put Dahlan sympathizers in power in many places, angering more radical facitons. Without doubt, the riots were also triggered in part by the prospect of Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in the near future. Arafat blamed the problems on Israel, as one might expect. In Al Hayat Al-Jadida, a more-or-less official Palestinian newspaper, Hafiz Barghouti called for a "white coup" - a coup of Arafat against Arafat, to purge the Fatah and make order.

It is hard to delineate the precise causes of this chaos, as of any chaos. Palestinian society is divided by clan loyalties, divisions between refugees and non-refugees, and secular versus Islamic ideologies. In the absence of a strong central government, it is natural that all of these problems will come to the fore, especially given the undemocratic and corrupt nature of the Palestinian Authority and the autocratic nature of Arafat's rule. The Palestinians cannot live without Arafat, who is the glue that helps keep Palestinian society together, but they cannot make any progress with Arafat in power (see the presentation by James Bennet, which is news to many people outside the Middle East, but which actually covers ground that is familiar to everyone in Israel and Palestine). It is harder to predict what this chaos will produce.

Despite the difficulties, we can understand what the troubles in the PNA are NOT about. They are not a political struggle between moderates and extremists, as some Israeli analysts seem to think. The Islamic groups - Hamas and Islamic Jihad, are not participating in the violence or the political discussions at all. It is a struggle of personalities, clans and loyalty groups within the Fatah movement and the Palestinian Authority, both of which have begun to disintegrate. Palestinians like Hafiz Barghouti, who think that Arafat can correct the problem by purging the bad guys and instituting democratic reform. The bad guys and the network of corruption are the basis of Arafat's power. If they are eliminated, Arafat will fall. He is not about to purge his power base. The recent events and Larsen's UN report have underlined the nature of Arafat and his regime, and have made him much less popular in the Arab press, but it is unlikely that he will be unseated. Some have suggested that international intervention, by the US, the UN or Egypt, could "clean up" Palestinian society and make order. The results of one such attempt are all too evident in Iraq, and make it unlikely that anyone will try that again for a while.

While the chaos continues, it is not possible to know who is in charge in the Palestinian territories, who can negotiate peace, and who can guarantee order. Israeli withdrawal from Gaza may make the chaos worse, but Israel is there now, and certainly cannot impose order. As the Fatah and Palestinian Authority continue to fly apart, the Islamic extremists are the only real gainers. There are no really good choices for the Palestinians. If Arafat is unseated, an unlikely event, there may be worse chaos, or more likely, a takeover by Islamist extremists. A Jihadist takeover will lead to isolation and perhaps a really bloody confrontation with Israel that could end in only one way. On the other hand, as long as Arafat and his successors remain in power, the corruption and misrule will continue.

Ami Isseroff
====================================================================================

"The Israeli Security Barrier and the ICJ - The ICJ opinion [Leon - in one of the hidden posts, denied this was an OPINION. http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwpframe.htm ]previously has turned the barrier into AN ANTI-ZIONIST ISSUE, making it difficult to rally support for changing the route and alleviating real humanitarian problems. "

The article from http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000280.htm reprinted in it's entirety below:

The Israeli Security Barrier (Fence,Wall) and the ICJ

07/14/2004

The adviory opinion of the International Court of Justice about the Israeli Security Barrier (aka Fence, Wall) has generated a lot of verbiage, generally in support of the ICJ rulling, because the fence is bad, or in support of the fence, because the ICJ ruling is bad and the barrier saves lives. The commentators generally line up on one side or the other of the question, depending on their Zionist or anti-Zionist orientation, with more or less total disregard of the facts. Consumers of analysis can take their pick of which opinion suits them best. The truth appears to be much more complex - the barrier is bad but necessary, and the ICJ ruling is bad but inevitable. Since the General Assembly will meet to discuss the question on Friday, and since the UN Security council will meet in November, and since the fence/barrier/wall is not going away, this debate will be with us for a while.

The fence/wall/barrier is bad because it arbitarily divides up neighborhoods and villages, running down the main street of Abu Dis, trapping people away from their fields and livelihoods, erecting cement barriers directly in front of the houses of some of them, so they cannot get out their front doors. The Israeli High Court has taken note of some of these defects and has ordered changes in the route of the barrier in A-Ram and elsewhere. The Israeli government is now embarking on extensive replanning of the barrier. It is doubtful that the final outcome of the replanning will very much more satisfactory, given the pressures of settlers to keep settlements within the Israeli side of the fence, and the general disregard of contractors who are implementing the route for the lives of the humans affected.

The only effective means to change the route of the fence lie within Israel - through the Israeli High Court and Israeli public opinion. Therefore, it is vital to rally the maximum possible support of the Israeli public and politicians for changing the route of the barrier. The actions of the Palestinian Authority in taking the matter to the UN, the ICJ decision regarding the fence, and the inevitable UN resolutions that will follow, are dooming Israeli efforts to change the route of the fence. The Palestinian Authority did not initiate these actions out of concern for the Palestinian people. The Palestinian Authority has long since demonstrated a reckless disregard for the welfare of the Palestinian people. It involved them in a suicidal struggle to destroy Israel through terror; it stole their money, squandering it on fancy automobiles and suicide bombings and Kassam rockets and squirreling it away in Swiss bank accounts. The ICJ ruling is just another propaganda weapon, part of the self-destructive war being waged by the Palestinian leadership.

The ruling is bad because, like the 1975 Zionism is Racism resolution of the UN General Assembly, the ICJ ruling and the UN resolutions that will inevitably follow, will unite all of Israel against the UN, because the ICJ has attacked Israel on an issue that is a matter of national consensus. Over 80% of Israelis support the security barrier. Even Israeli Arabs support it. The barrier alone will not stop terror and theft and infiltration, and it cannot stop Kassam missiles of course, but the barrier is part of a general strategy that has proven effective in reducing the number of successful terror attacks.

The General Assembly of the UN asked the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion regarding the legality of the Israeli security barrier. In doing so, it had already implied its own opinion by singling out a specific conflict, since the General Assembly did not, for example, ask for an opinion about whether or not support for terrorist groups like the Islamic Jihad is against international law, or whether or not the rapes and murders and enslavement in Sudan constitutes genocide, or whether or not Chinese policy in Tibet constitutes a violation of international law. Since the opinion of the General Assembly was clear, the outcome of the ICJ ruling was bound to follow that opinion. The ruling is a clear victory for the Palestinians, and they have announced their intention to exploit the ruling in order to pressure Israel regarding the wall. In fact, the ICJ opinion went beyond an advisory regarding the fence/wall/barrier, ruling that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are occupied territory, and that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law. It will be recalled, that officially, Israel refuses to call the territories "occupied" and that a description of the territories as "occupied" by Prime Minister Sharon resulted in a furor among right-wing Zionists. Thus far, there are really no surprises though, since the court was only expressing views that reflect the weight of world opinion.

The ICJ ruling is bad because it strips Israel and other states of the right to defend themselves against terror using any sort of force. The ICJ ruled that because Palestinian terror attacks are not carried out by a foreign power or foreign nationals, they are not covered by UN Charter provisions for self-defence or UN resolutions against terrorism. However, any terrorist action is potentially not due to the action of foreign states or even foreign nationals. The attacks in Saudi Arabia are carried out by Saudis, and the attacks in Turkey were carried out by Turks. The 9-11 attacks could have been carried out by American Muslim extremists as well as by Saudis. The attacks of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Fatah Al-Aqsa brigades are no doubt financed by foreign powers including Iran, but the ICJ chose to ignore

Some believe that Israel could meet the objections of the court simply by building the barrier within the 1949 armistice line ("Green Line"). It is debatable whether or not this is true. If the barrier were built along the 1967 borders, it would mean that the Palestinians could once again close the road to Jerusalem as they did in 1948, since the Latrun monastery and other key areas that dominate the road would be in their hands. It would also mean that the Hebrew University campus on Mount Scopus, as well as the Jewish quarter of the Old city are at the mercy of suicide bombers. Does anyone believe Israel will agree to this? But the advisory opinion does not say that building the barrier along the Green line would satisfy the court. It only says that the current course of the barrier is illegal. According to numerous UN resolutions, no part of Jerusalem belongs to Israel. Jerusalem is meant to be a corpus separatum under international supervision. Even before 1967, UN resolutions condemned Israeli actions in West Jerusalem. Military parades were condemned as provocations. It is scarcely to be thought that the ICJ would tolerate a barrier if the Palestinians objected, and they would certainly object.

The ICJ ruling is bad because it is, in general, a part of Yasser Arafat's attempt to avoid the negotiating table and force a solution on Israel instead, through international pressure. It is of a piece with demands for an International Conference and an international peace keeping force that were made in the past by the Palestinian Authority. Of course, the Sharon government has given much aid to this strategy by refusing to negotiate even when it was possible. The two "partners in peace" certainly deserve each other.

The ICJ ruling is bad because it will not be enforced, which makes a mockery of "international law." It would be much worse if it was enforced, since it is a unilateral and biased judgement, driven by obvious political motivations, which ignores the context of the conflict and exacerbates an already complex and violent situation. The bias is evident in every aspect of the court's reasoning. For example, in a wry bit of irony, the court cites freedom of access to holy places as part of its reasoning, noting, in paragraph 129, that this freedom of access has been guaranteed since Turkish times, and was guaranteed under Jordanian rule. The majority opinion includes the following:

Subsequently, in the aftermath of the armed conflict of 1948, the 1949 General Armistice Agreement between Jordan and Israel provided in Article VIII for the establishment of a special committee for "the formulation of agreed plans and arrangements for such matters as either Party may submit to it" for the purpose of enlarging the scope of the Agreement and of effecting improvement in its application. Such matters, on which an agreement of principle had already been concluded, included "free access to the Holy Places".

However, as everyone knows, there was no access for Israeli Jews to holy places in East Jerusalem under Jordanian rule. Moreover, there is no reason to expect that the wall will block access to holy places much more than the current checkpoints do, so the entire argument is irrelevant, except to underline the futility of UN decisions in the Middle East.

In an irrelevant discussion of history, the court goes out of its way to note:

70. Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. At the end of the First World War, a class "A" Mandate for Palestine was entrusted to Great Britain by the League of Nations, pursuant to paragraph 4 of Article 22 of the Covenant, which provided that:

"Certain communities, formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone."

The Court recalls that in its Advisory Opinion on the International Status of South West Africa, speaking of mandates in general, it observed that "The Mandate was created, in the interest of the inhabitants of the territory, and of humanity in general, as an international institution with an
international object - a sacred trust of civilization." (I.C.J. Reports 1950, p. 132.) The Court also held in this regard that "two principles were considered to be of paramount importance: the principle of non-annexation and the principle that the well-being and development of . . . peoples [not yet able to govern themselves] form[ed] 'a sacred trust of civilization'"(ibid., p. 131).

The territorial boundaries of the Mandate for Palestine were laid down by various instruments, in particular on the eastern border by a British memorandum of 16 September 1922 and an Anglo-Transjordanian Treaty of 20 February 1928.

It is unclear why we needed this lesson in history, but if it was provided, it is nothing short of amazing that the court did
not mention, that the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine was entrusted to Great Britain for the purpose of creating a national home for the Jews. Even more amazingly, rather than dicsussing the Palestine Mandate, the court refers to the Mandate for South West Africa, going far afield to find a quotation of tangential relevance.

Continuing its historical fantasy, in paragraph 71 the ICJ opinion states:

...on 14 May 1948, Israel proclaimed its independence on the strength of the General Assembly resolution; armed conflict then broke out between Israel and a number of Arab States and the Plan of Partition was not implemented.

In fact, the Arab countries invaded Israel, in violation of UN Resolution 181, and of the UN Charter. Invading other countries is not allowed under the UN charter, but the learned judges erased this fact from history by a stroke of their pen.

These and other extravagances mark the ICJ document as a shoddy bit of anti-Zionist propaganda rather than a considered legal opinion. It is designed to form the basis of a propaganda campaign, rather than being intended to promote justice and human rights. What else can we expect from an opinion about international and humanitarian law that was requested, by among others, the representative of Sudan, whose government was even then busy committing genocide in Darfur and in the south?

How can the Israeli peace movement, or Israeli politicians, generate sympathy for the needless suffering caused by the barrier, when the ICJ ruling has already in effect, declared that the issue is a cause celebre of enemies of Israel, and a political lever to be used in the PNA's war against Israel?

Ami Isseroff
====================================================================================

For someone ostensibly so concerned with the fate of this one group of oppressed people in a world awash with oppression, Leon CIArter's silence on the internal politricks of Palestinian society provides us with a glimpse into the mindset of the "Anti"-Zionist.

About The MidEastWeb Group

MidEast Web was started by people active in Middle East dialog and peace education efforts. Our goal is to weave a world-wide web of Arabs, Jews and others who want to build a new Middle East based on coexistence and neighborly relations. Our members and staff include distinguished educators, engineers, Web designers and other professionals experienced in dialog, peace education projects and in promoting dialog and coexistence using the Internet.

MidEast Web for Coexistence is a registered non-government organization in Israel.

Wherever you are, you are welcome to join us.

These are our founding members and supporters around the world:

Suhail AbulSamid is an internationally known Jordanian architect and Web designer. He has done innovative designs of a bookshop- Internet Cafe, an Internet training center, tourist villages and archeological restorations.

Mel Allerhand is a consulting psychologist and author. He works with peace organizations in USA and Israel, including WINDOWS magazine, to increase their effectiveness, and helps design and implement workshops on conflict resolution.

Rutie Atsmon of the Windows - Channels for Communication group is co-editor of WINDOWS, and Face to Face, Arabic-Hebrew magazines written by Palestinian and Israeli youth and distributed to schools in Israel and Palestine. She is also director of the Windows Group’s recently opened Israeli-Palestinian friendship center.

Adel Darwish is a free-lance reporter and founder and editor of Mideast News, a web news service.

Professor Nachman Eshel was in charge of planning and implementation of the entire teaching system of the Open University of Israel (O.U.I.) and served as its director for eleven years, during which he was instrumental in constructing the concept and structure of teaching in the University's early years.

Henry Eskalasi is personal assistant to Abie Nathan, the Israeli peace activist who was jailed for meeting with PLO officials and who initiated and ran the Voice of Peace radio station.

Robert Gordon is a mediation and dialog professional, and is active in fund raising for the Cousins Club of Orange County.

Matthew Hogan is an American attorney and writer. He helped organize the Cousins Club of North Texas, a Jewish-Arab dialogue group based in Dallas, Texas.

Yitzhak Frankenthal was Executive Director of the OzVeshalom/ Netivei Shalom peace movement in Israel from 1995 to 1998. He initated “Parents’ Circle” an association of bereaved Israeli parents to bring Palestinians and Israelis closer together. For his work for peace, he received the “International Activist Award” from the Gleitsman Foundation. His is currently engaged in organizing a massive publicity campaign to popularize peace values in both Israeli and Palestinian society.

Micha’el Frishberg is a member of Kibbutz Ein Dor who has been actively assisting various NGOs in the neighboring Arab communities of the kibbutz. In particular, he acts as correspondent for the Marj Ibn Amer NGO and helps in formulating proposals for grants from various dedicated funds.

Ameen Hannoun is a Web designer and free-lance Journalist in Amman. He is the initiator and co-coordinator, with Ami Isseroff, of the PEACE Mid-East Dialog Group. He is editor and designer of the PEACE Web site and has contributed to PeaceWatch.

Hussein Issa was founder and principal of the Hope Flowers School in El Khader. Hope Flowers teaches coexistence and non-violent approaches to conflict resolution as well as Hebrew, and conducts numerous meetings and joint activities with schools in Israel. Hope Flowers and MEW have an active and fruitftul relationship.

Ami Isseroff, director of MidEast Web, is co-coordinator, with Ameen Hannoun, of the Internet PEACE Mid-East Dialog and editor of PeaceWatch, the PEACE dialogs Web journal. He is a programmer, system designer and technical writer. As a Senior Researcher in the Weizmann Institute, he pioneered microcomputer applications for scientific research.

Peter Liatowitsch is co-director of the Jewish-Palestinian dialog group in Basle, Switzerland.

Boaz Mermelshtein is an instructional designer of educational software for children and youth for use on home computers and the Internet.

David Mencher is a talented amateur musician and a professional chiropractor who has donated his time and efforts to peace in the Middle East.

Anika Kanter Movchine is an artist and Web designer who has designed Web sites for non-profit organizations as well as commercial clients.

Barbara Nasralla is Academic Coordinator of the Intensive American Language Center at Washington State University who is active in Arab- Jewish dialog.

Saida Nusseibeh has pioneered interfaith dialog and educational projects, beginning with the JADE group in England. She is on the board of several Palestinian charities and dialog groups.

Mordehai Peri is Director of Hagefen, a Haifa-based organization for promotion of Arab-Jewish cooperation and dialog in Israel.

Professor Marian Rabinowitz is a gerontologist and specialist in rehabilitation medicine, dealing with issues of quality of life and human dignity in the later years and chronic disability. He is involved in education for values of compassion and human understanding and Peace.

Israel Rapaport is an economist and political activist. At present, he is manager of the Inter-kibbutz Web site and Internet facility.

George Rishmawi is coordinator of the Palestine Center for Rapprochement Between People in Beit Sahour, and a professional Web designer.

Robert Rosenberg is an author and journalist. He has pioneered the use of Internet for peace, and has donated his energies to developing the Ariga Web site as a center for Israeli peace activism.

Gene Sandretto is assistant director of the Hope Flowers School, and is an expert on teaching non-violence and mediation techniques.

Ruth Shapin is a California attorney. She is a. founder of the Cousins Club of Orange County in 1988, a dialogue and action group of Jews, Palestinians and others; founder and Board member of the Orange County Middle East Peace Fund, a non-profit organization which funds peace -oriented projects in the Middle East, primarily the Hope Flowers School.

Saliba Sarsar is dean of Monmouth College in New Jersey, and has been active in dialog and interfaith projects.

Libby Traubman helped organize the 1991 Beyond War conference for Israelis and Palestinians which resulted in the historic document, Framework For A Public Peace Process. In 1992, she co-founded the successful Jewish-Palestinian Living Room Dialogue Group, in California. Libby is a founder of the Foundation for Global Community, and is on the Board of San Mateo County 2000.

Lionel "Len" Traubman, a pediatric dentist, helped enact the Beyond War conference. He initiated a Web site to communicate the positive experiences and principles of the Jewish-Palestinian Living Room Dialogue and similar groups. Len is former Director of the San Francisco Dental Society, and was Editor of the American Academy of Pediatric Dentistry and of the California Society of Dentistry for Children.

Eric Yellin is an Internet professional with experience in Web site building, applications design and maintenance of large Internet and web systems. He is involved in a variety of Internet projects ranging from social and educational to business and organizational ones. He will be helping MidEast Web, among other things, with technical aspects of operating the Web site.

Yehoshua Zamir, Chairman of MidEast Web, is a member of Kibbutz Ein-Dor. He was the initiator of the MidEast Web idea: an interactive Web site that would serve as a tool for peace education and a resource for dialog and peace education groups. He was a writer and filmmaker who has made documentary films and written books about the need for peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. We regret to note the passing of Yehoshua Zamir in 2002, he will be sorely missing by his friends, his family and the cause of peace. MidEastWeb has created a page in his memory.

>> "The General Assembly of the UN asked the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion regarding the legality of the Israeli security barrier. In doing so, it had already implied its own opinion BY SINGLING OUT A SPECIFIC CONFLICT [who ELSE is erecting walls on stolen land???], since the General Assembly did not, for example, ask for an opinion about whether or not support for terrorist groups like the Islamic Jihad [or MOSSAD, or JDL, or JINSA, or PNAC] is against international law"
- from Nigel's "voice of reason" zion-nazi link (op. cit.)
==============================

This explains why Palestinians--all of them--"have ONLY BAD CHOICES". Thanks, nigel!

Naturally, chosen ones have plenty of good choices available. Thanks Jehovah!

Zion-Nazi apartheid is dying, stinky worm - and zion-nazi liars like you and Andrew Bolt can do nothing to hinder the dissemination of accurate information on the eugenic cult of PNAC-Zion and YOUR War Against Goyim:

===========================
SBS: TV for liars
Those who hate Jews and love lies would have enjoyed watching SBS this week. The rest of us have every right to feel betrayed.
28jul04
- Andrew Bolt for Zion
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10264401%255E25717,00.html
===========================

Oh - and thanks for the demonstration of the zinion-nazi censorship policy. Here's what you censored:

=============================
The following post has status hidden:
culture-jamming zIonMC
by long live Zion • Monday June 14, 2004 at 10:43 PM

so... since zIonMC apprently only want lamearse issues discussed, why not exploit the discussion-abled status of these lamearse threads to deploy USEFUL information?

=============================
If half the neocons were Palestinians, would the US have invaded Iraq? -- the 'Jewish Debate' continues

In a previous issue of Adbusters and on our website, Adbusters editor Kalle Lasn wrote an article that asked a contentious question: "Does the Jewishness of the neocons influence American foreign policy in the Middle East?" Hundreds of responses flooded in -- postings on our site, letters, emails, faxes, threatening phone calls, cancelled subscriptions, and even talk of picketing stores that carry Adbusters magazine.

Here, then, is Kalle's response, and the ongoing debate:

The list of Jewish neocons we came up with is a provocation, I’ll admit. And if it were a list of dentists or firefighters or stockbrokers, then that would indeed be very offensive. However, the neocons are no ordinary group – they are the most influencial political/intellectual force in the world right now. They have the power to start wars and to stop them. They are the prime architects of America’s foreign policy since 9/11 – a policy that is heavily weighed in favor of Israel and a key source of anti-Americanism around the world. So I think it is not only appropriate, but necessary to put them under a microscope. And if we see maleness, whiteness, Jewishness, Zionism or intellectual thuggery there, then let us not look the other way.

On the ethnic question: Is it not just as valid to comment on the Jewishness of the neocons as it is to point out that the majority of them are male or white or wealthy or from the Western world or have studied at a particular university? If half the neocons were Palestinians, would the US have invaded Iraq?

Kalle Lasn,
Editor-in-Chief, ADBUSTERS
http://www.adbusters.org/home/indexFlash.html
===================================

The following post has status hidden:
Eat Shit for Zion
by mim supporter • Wednesday June 16, 2004 at 07:30 AM

The following posts have status: censored.

MIM which proclaims itself a bastion of free speech and open publishing/media has quietly taken steps to constrict the flow, and audience, of free and wide ranging discussions but "This is not news..."

No fanfare and blaring trumpets preceding the collectives announcement about their new binary virtual earplugs to filter double plus bad speak.

In fact, no announcement even.

This is not news...

Covert subversion of free speech and exchange of ideas but it's not news.

quote:
This is a list of the latest comments posted on the site. It is here so that you can MORE EASILY PARTICIPATE in commenting on articles that are posted, and CONTINUING DISCUSSION THAT HAVE STARTED.

Thou shalt not crticize Israel
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/71438_comment.php#71441

zIonMC's chosen ones deemed this thread non-worthy of discussion-abled status, and deemed those responsible non-worthy of an explanation as to why this decision was implimented.

inferential dislaimer - #2:
Thou SHALT PARROT PEAK-OIL PARANOIA, but thou shalt not discuss the marketing of this peak energy hoax, or any evidence that was already published refuting it.
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/71379.php

inferential disclaimer - #3:
WE Will Decide what YOU shalt and shalt not discuss here from now on.
=======================================

The following post has status hidden:
The Eugenic Predator of Zion
by Eat Shit for Zion, goy • Wednesday June 16, 2004 at 07:21 PM

War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal

Oliver Burkeman and Julian Borger in Washington
Thursday November 20, 2003
The Guardian

International lawyers and anti-war campaigners reacted with astonishment yesterday after the influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal.

In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London: "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

President George Bush has consistently argued that the war was legal either because of existing UN security council resolutions on Iraq - also the British government's publicly stated view - or as an act of self-defence permitted by international law.

But Mr Perle, a key member of the defence policy board, which advises the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said that "international law ... would have required us to leave Saddam Hussein alone", and this would have been morally unacceptable.

French intransigence, he added, meant there had been "no practical mechanism consistent with the rules of the UN for dealing with Saddam Hussein".

Mr Perle, who was speaking at an event organised by the Institute of Contemporary Arts in London, had argued loudly for the toppling of the Iraqi dictator since the end of the 1991 Gulf war.

"They're just not interested in international law, are they?" said Linda Hugl, a spokeswoman for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, which launched a high court challenge to the war's legality last year. "It's only when the law suits them that they want to use it."

Mr Perle's remarks bear little resemblance to official justifications for war, according to Rabinder Singh QC, who represented CND and also participated in Tuesday's event.

Certainly the British government, he said, "has never advanced the suggestion that it is entitled to act, or right to act, contrary to international law in relation to Iraq".

The Pentagon adviser's views, he added, underlined "a divergence of view between the British govern ment and some senior voices in American public life [who] have expressed the view that, well, if it's the case that international law doesn't permit unilateral pre-emptive action without the authority of the UN, then the defect is in international law".

Mr Perle's view is not the official one put forward by the White House. Its main argument has been that the invasion was justified under the UN charter, which guarantees the right of each state to self-defence, including pre-emptive self-defence. On the night bombing began, in March, Mr Bush reiterated America's "sovereign authority to use force" to defeat the threat from Baghdad.

The UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, has questioned that justification, arguing that the security council would have to rule on whether the US and its allies were under imminent threat.

Coalition officials countered that the security council had already approved the use of force in resolution 1441, passed a year ago, warning of "serious consequences" if Iraq failed to give a complete ac counting of its weapons programmes.

Other council members disagreed, but American and British lawyers argued that the threat of force had been implicit since the first Gulf war, which was ended only by a ceasefire.

"I think Perle's statement has the virtue of honesty," said Michael Dorf, a law professor at Columbia University who opposed the war, arguing that it was illegal.

"And, interestingly, I suspect a majority of the American public would have supported the invasion almost exactly to the same degree that they in fact did, had the administration said that all along."

The controversy-prone Mr Perle resigned his chairmanship of the defence policy board earlier this year but remained a member of the advisory board.

Meanwhile, there was a hint that the US was trying to find a way to release the Britons held at Guantanamo Bay.

The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, said Mr Bush was "very sensitive" to British sentiment. "We also expect to be resolving this in the near future," he told the BBC.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1089158,00.html

"Perhaps the conspiracy theory has merit," Raimondi said when asked why Israeli agents involved in criminal activities were being deported on visa violations. Raimondi was unable to answer when asked if DHS was concerned about the network of Israeli-owned moving companies in the United States, some with proven ties to Israeli intelligence.

========================================

Isn't interesting what YOU don't want US to see or discuss?

=====================
Blow me...up
by Intifada is over, the perps lost, as usual Saturday July 24, 2004 at 08:09 AM

" Meanwhile the troops busy themselves with the task of smashing through a wall into an adjacent home, as one girl begs the soldiers to stop. "

Intifada sucks , don't it? Arabs frequently booby trap doors...peacefully of course...breaking through walls is a good thing...
That little girl should be begging the terrorists to stop, and NEGOTIATE for peace...
===================================
(op. cit.)

"...."Anti"-Zionism: a global DISTRACTION"
-nigel kosherizing the eugenic cult and pretneding that anti-zionism is just pretend.
(op.cit.)
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/opposition/cannonfodder.htm

pretty kewl, huh?

===================
It is unclear why we needed this lesson in history, but if it was provided, it is nothing short of amazing that the court did not mention, that the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine was entrusted to Great Britain for the purpose of creating A NATIONAL HOME FOR the Jews.
===================
from nigel's "palestinians have only bad choices" website (op. cit.)

from the Balfour Declaration:
====================
"'His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national HOME for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object,

IT BEING CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT

NOTHING SHALL BE DONE

WHICH MAY PREJUDICE THE CIVIL AND RELIGIOUS RIGHTS

OF EXISTING

NON-JEWISH COMMUNITIES

in Palestine..."
====================

it being clearly understood that....

Nigel, I would like to know what exactly you mean by "Zionism and "Anti"-Zionism: A Globalist distraction"?

It seems to me that this is a little like saying "Aphartide and anti-Aphartide: A Globalist distraction".

Your web-ring (you mentioned above) sounds fine but I am curious about your position on Zionism. While I have noticed a certain anti-semitic tone to some of these debates - I think that being anti-Zionist is a totally different issue.

How can a statist ideology that depends on religious fundamentalism, racism and seperatism ever be anything less than a massive block to any efforts at peace? Or ever lead to anything but violence, opression and hatred?

Most Jews considered Zionism to be an extremist and dangerous ideology before WWII. It was only after the Holocaust that Zionism became popular and much of this was due to propaganda by Zionist lobby groups and politicians - many of whom did collaborate with the NAZIs.

As far as I can see Zionism is a fundamentally self-defeating and "self-hating" ideology too because it promotes the idea that Jews are somehow incapable of living peacefully with the rest of the population.

Israel is a blight on humanity. Just as South Africa (which Israel supported millitarily and politically) under Aphartide was. It must be destroyed and replaced with a SECULAR Palestine (or whatever you want to call the nation) that will allow both Israelis and Palestinians of any religion to live equally and free. (Thats just my 2c)

Thankyou "!" for your feedback, and for forcing me to clarify certain things (Unfortunately, when one "debates" with the same people over time, too many assumptions tend to get made).
I'm still writing my response and hope to get it posted tonight or tomorrow morning.

Great!- and when you've spent all day time composing an explanation for your bizzare assertion that anti-Zionism doesn't exist, you can then explain your malicious mirepresentation of my comments on zIonMC censorship policies here:
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/72000_comment.php#75573

But, of course, we're still waiting for that evidence you promised us to support your last 17 assertions for Zion...

Thankyou "!" for asking intelligent questions and requesting clarification. Seeing the issues you've raised open up a Pandora's box of issues, I'll need to post a number of responses over the next few days interspersed with some supporting articles. One thing I need to make clear is that I do not necessarily agree with every nuance and bias of every article (on whatever topic) I crosspost. Often I don't agree with much of an article at all, but find the FACTS revealed interesting and relevant. The fact that I get accused of being everything from a Zionist to Islamist to Communist to Nazi by various dogmatists suggests to me that I'm doing something right. I do of course get things wrong - such as this rather embarrassing stuff up on my part http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/05/69359_comment.php
I'll be posting further comments in that thread soon.

"Nigel, I would like to know what exactly you mean by "Zionism and "Anti"-Zionism: A Globalist distraction"?

It seems to me that this is a little like saying "Aphartide and anti-Aphartide: A Globalist distraction" "

Fair question and observation. I'll go into the "Globalist distraction" bit in more detail in the near future but for now I'll point out that the focus on Israel from the far left to the far right compared to the focus on numerous other wars/oppressive situations throughout the world should be questioned. Why is there so much focus on Israel/Palestine? It's on the news nearly every night and is one of (if not the) biggest topic in the ostensibly progressive underground media. Why?
While I can see some merit in the Israel/Zionism=Apartheid analogy from a rhetoric/propaganda perspective, it is fundamentally flawed as the article at http://emperors-clothes.com/letters/land.htm explains. Also, progressive Zionists do exist whereas I can't see how apartheid can be in any way progressive.
I also need to explain my play on words regarding "Anti"-Zionism and Anti-Zionism. I have never had any issue with antizionists. Indeed, I am basically an antizionist myself - though in simple terms I find it more constructive to be PRO-positive things rather than ANTI-negative things. I don't generally associate myself with that term, for reasons which will become clear shortly. When I use the term "Anti"-Zionism, I am referring to the fake opposition to Zionism and the fake opposition to Globalist oppression (and similars) generally. It is after all the oppressive/deceptive etc. aspects of Zionism which drive *progressive* antizionists to reach the position they do. Therefore, progressive antizionists should be opposed to oppression etc. regardless of whether it is perpetrated by Zionists or not. "Anti"-Zionism has little interest in the Palestinians except in using them for propaganda (prop-agenda) purposes.

".....but I am curious about your position on Zionism."

See comments above. Also:
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2003/07/50386_comment.php#50494
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/03/64476_comment.php#64484
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/03/64241_comment.php#64578

"How can a statist ideology that depends on religious fundamentalism, racism and seperatism ever be anything less than a massive block to any efforts at peace? Or ever lead to anything but violence, opression and hatred?"

It can't. See http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/73820_comment.php#73897

"Most Jews considered Zionism to be an extremist and dangerous ideology before WWII. It was only after the Holocaust that Zionism became popular and much of this was due to propaganda by Zionist lobby groups and politicians - many of whom did collaborate with the NAZIs."

Essentially true. In many ways, Zionism is a Naziesque trap for Jews http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2003/11/57385_comment.php#57448

"As far as I can see Zionism is a fundamentally self-defeating and "self-hating" ideology too because it promotes the idea that Jews are somehow incapable of living peacefully with the rest of the population."

Welcome to the wonderful world of nationalism, and seperatism generally. But like all nationalisms, Zionism has its diversities and varying extremes.

"Israel is a blight on humanity. Just as South Africa (which Israel supported millitarily and politically) under Aphartide was. It must be destroyed and replaced with a SECULAR Palestine (or whatever you want to call the nation) that will allow both Israelis and Palestinians of any religion to live equally and free. (Thats just my 2c)"

I try not to equate an entire country with it's political system. If Israel is a "blight on humanity", what of Iran, Sudan, Russia, North Korea, China, the US, Britain, Australia or any other nation state responsible for oppression? I have no significant disagreement with the basic vision of your solution, but think the solutions have to come from the people most affected.

Coming soon (not necessarily in this order):
1) A closer look at "Anti"-Zionism, and how it serves Globalist and Zionist agendas.
2) How to spot an "Anti"-Zionist.
3) A look at how Globalist forces use infiltration and divide&rule to achieve their objectives.
4) A humble look at possible solutions/paths to solutions for some of the problems discussed.
5) Any other issues which might crop up on the way!

The following 3 articles provide examples of real world (as opposed to keyboard) "Anti"-Zionism.

From http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=SP65804 :

Egyptian Government Daily: Suicide Bombings are Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed

An editorial in the Egyptian government daily Al-Masaa praised suicide/martyrdom operations, and called on
Palestinian organizations to not publish the names of the bombers so that their families' houses would not be demolished. The article focuses primarily on female suicide bombers, following the debate in the Arab media over Hamas's dispatching of Reem Al-Riyashi, a mother of two, to carry out the January 14, 2004 bombing in Gaza. The following is the translation of the editorial : [1]

"We ask again, why do the various Palestinian organizations insist on publishing the name of everyone who
carries out a martyrdom operation against the Zionist entity?

"We have no argument regarding the question of the legitimacy of these operations, because they are considered a powerful weapon used by the Palestinians against an enemy with no morality or religion, [an enemy] who has deadly weapons prohibited by international law, that is not deterred from using them against the defenseless Palestinian people.

"Even if during [a martyrdom operation] civilians or children are killed – the blame does not fall upon the Palestinians, but on those who forced them to turn to this modus operandi.

"Ultimately, we should bless every Palestinian man or woman who goes calmly to carry out a martyrdom operation, in order to receive a reward in the Hereafter, sacrificing her life for her religion and her homeland and knowing that she will never return from this operation.

***"But at the same time, we wonder about the reason for publishing the names of those who carry out the [martyrdom] operations; [this publishing] is a valuable gift that the Palestinian resistance gives the Zionist entity*** [My emphasis - C], since as soon as it receives this gift, the armies of the [Zionist] entity hasten to the home of the martyr's family, wounded by the loss of its son, in order to multiply its pain by destroying its home. Moreover, the home of the martyr's family is always destroyed negligently, causing serious damage to or the collapse of the neighbor's home.

"We ask the leaders of these organizations: Give us one good reason for publishing the names of the martyrs whom, it can be assumed, martyred themselves for the religion, the homeland, and the people, and not for any other reason. The Lebanese resistance published [the names of] those who took this path during the years of the Zionist occupation [in Lebanon] without any logical justification. We were surprised that the Palestinian resistance is employing the same method, also without any justification. "This is even though the situation is different, as the Shahids in the case of Lebanon, such as Sanaa Muheidali and other women, lived in territories not under the control of the Zionist occupation, while in the Palestinian case, [they live under Zionist occupation]."

[1] Al-Masaa (Egypt), January 2, 2004.
====================================================================================

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=NYAOZ032IHSG3QFIQMFSM5WAVCBQ0JVC?xml=/news/2004/02/12/wmid12.xml :

Palestinian PM's firm 'helps build Israeli wall'
By Toby Harnden in Jerusalem
(Filed: 12/02/2004)

The family of the Palestinian prime minister has been
supplying concrete for Israel's security barrier, it was claimed yesterday, as legislators launched an investigation into companies profiting from the trade.

"We want to know if this cement was used to build the barrier or any other Israeli needs," said Hassan Khreishe, a Palestinian legislator on the inquiry committee.

Ahmed Qureia, the prime minister, also known as Abu Ala, denied that he or his family's Al-Quds Cement company had anything to do with the barrier or construction work in Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

"At base this is a report that is not even worth the ink it was written with," he said during a visit to Rome.

One of the most controversial sections of the barrier, due to be 370-450 miles long when completed, is a 21-mile stretch of 30ft-high concrete wall that divides East Jerusalem from Abu Dis, where Mr Qureia lives.

Israel's Channel 10 television broadcast the allegation, which Mr Khreishe also denied. "There are several names mentioned, but for sure, the name of Abu Ala is not mentioned in this issue," he said.

Television showed cement mixers leaving the Al-Quds company and apparently driving to the nearby Jewish settlement of Ma'ale Adumim, just a few miles away.

Mr Qureia, like all leading Palestinian politicians, has vehemently opposed both the barrier and Jewish settlements. Proof that his family company had helped build the Abu Dis wall would probably lead to his stepping down.

Journalists who went to the Al-Quds factory yesterday were told by workers that the company belongs to the Qureia family but managers refused to talk.

Jamal Shati, another member of the inquiry committee, said: "This is a very dangerous national issue. This is something that belongs to the core of the Palestinian cause."

Many of the workers involved in erecting the fence are Palestinians, some of whom have also been paid for building houses in Jewish settlements. The United Nations International Court of Justice is due to hear a case about whether the barrier, which is designed to stop suicide bombers but cuts into the occupied territories, is legal.

An Israeli government source said it was "60 per cent likely' that Israel would boycott the ICJ hearing. Britain, America and the European Union are all opposed to the route of the fence but have argued that the issue does not fall within the jurisdiction of the court.

The hearing wil go ahead before the jurisdiction issue is resolved. The court is then likely to take several months before reaching a decision.

Some senior Israeli politicians believe participation in the hearing would only lend credibility to what they see as an almost inevitable decision against them.

But others insist that Israel has very strong security arguments in its favour and that these need to be aired.
====================================================================================

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/25/wmid25.xml

Palestinians 'made millions' selling cheap cement for barrier they bitterly oppose
By Inigo Gilmore in Jerusalem
(Filed: 25/07/2004)

Palestinian businessmen have made millions of pounds
supplying cement for Israel's "security barrier" in the full knowledge of Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader and one of the wall's most vocal critics.

A damning report by Palestinian legislators, which has been seen by the Telegraph, concludes that Mr Arafat did nothing to stop the deals although he publicly condemned the structure as a "crime against humanity".
The report claims that the cement was sold with the knowledge of senior officials at the Palestinian ministry of national economy, and close advisers to Mr Arafat. It concludes that officials were bribed to issue import licences for the cement to importers and businessmen working for Israelis.

One of the report's three authors, Hassan Khreishe - an independent legislator and long-term critic of Mr Arafat - last night called for the Palestinian cabinet to resign.

"Wealthy Palestinians with connections at the highest levels have been making millions helping Israel build this wall while Arafat and the Palestinian Authority have been urging people to fight against it," said Mr Khreishe, a council member from the West Bank city of Tulkarm.

"Why Arafat did nothing about it, we just don't know. These people are traitors who have brought shame on us, and they should be punished."

An official in Mr Arafat's office said: "We will not comment because this file has been closed and it is now in the hands of the attorney general."

Growing resistance to corruption in the Palestinian Authority is posing the most serious internal challenge to Mr Arafat's leadership. Last week, gunmen staged a number of kidnappings and attacks on security buildings in the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Thousands of Palestinians demonstrated about high-level corruption and the appointment of Mr Arafat's cousin, Moussa Arafat, as security chief in the Gaza Strip.

The report reveals that the cement originally came from Egyptian companies which supplied it at a huge discount of $22 (£12.50) a ton to help rebuild dilapidated Palestinian houses or buildings bulldozed by the Israelis.

Between September 2003 and March this year, 420,000 tons of cement were allegedly sent to three big Palestinian companies. According to the report, however, only 33,000 tons were sold in the Palestinian market. The vast bulk was transported to Israel on trucks owned by the three firms. According to Mr Khreishe, the cement was then sold with a mark-up of at least $15 a ton - and possibly as high as $100 - making profits of well over $6 million (£3.4 million) for company executives.

The Legislative Council launched an investigation after Egyptian journalists stumbled upon business links between a German Jewish businessman and the Palestinian companies.

According to the report, on November 9 last year a letter was sent to Mr Arafat by the Palestinian Authority comptroller, revealing that open-ended import licences for the cement had been signed by Maher al-Masri, the economy minister.

The Palestinian Authority comptroller asserted in the letter that the cement was destined for the wall.

The letter was allegedly received and seen by Mr Arafat on the same day that he urged people to demonstrate on the first international "Day against the Wall". According to Mr Khreishe, Mr Arafat took no action to stop further imports, which continued for another five months.

Ministry officials said that Mr al-Masri was unavailable for comment. The minister was quoted on a Palestinian news website challenging the claims, although he conceded that some cement had been transported to Israeli businessmen. "There is an exaggeration," he said. "The goal is to distort my reputation."

He said that his own investigative committee found that only 14,500 tons of concrete were transported to Israel. He conceded that two ministry officials carried out some "suspicious administrative violations" in relation to the permits, and that there was not full co-ordination between the economy and finance ministries regarding the cement quota. The ministry had issued permits for 233,000 tons, he said, and had then cancelled permits for 65,000 tons.

The revelations in the report are highly embarrassing for Mr Arafat, who has been pushing the international community to condemn the 425-mile barrier, of which about one quarter has been built. Israel says that the barrier is vital to protect its citizens from suicide bombers and terrorist attacks. Palestinian leaders argue that it is designed to deprive them of a state, and is cutting off Palestinians from their land, schools, doctors and relatives.

Last week, the United Nations condemned the barrier and demanded that it should be torn down.
====================================================================================

We implore and beseech our Jewish brethren to realize that the Zionists are not the saviors of the Jewish People and guarantors of their safety, but rather the instigators and original cause of Jewish suffering in the Holy Land and worldwide. The idea that Zionism and the State of “Israel” is the protector of Jews is probably the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the Jewish People. Indeed, where else since 1945 have Jews been in such physical danger as in the Zionist state?!

Jews are enjoined by their religious laws to be loyal to the country of which they are citizens. ever since the destruction of the holy Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of the Jewish People some two thousand years ago, we have been enjoined to be scrupulously loyal to the countries we reside in, One of the great biblical prophets, Jeremiah, in chapter 29 of his book proclaimed G-d's message to all the exiled; verse seven reads, "Seek out the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray for it to the Almighty, for through its welfare will you have welfare." This has been a cornerstone of Jewish morality throughout our history to this very day.

Torah-true Jews wish to live in peace and harmony with their neighbors in every country among the community of nations, including in historic Palestine. They deplore acts and policies of violence carried out by those who, misusing the name of Israel our forefather, have substituted the ideal of chauvinist nationalism for the eternal values of the Torah, the eternal divinely bestowed inheritance of the Jewish people.

It has been the age-old intention of Zionism to intentionally stir up anti-Semitism anywhere possible, and even more commonly, to take advantage of any Jewish suffering anywhere in order to enhance its cause Indeed, hatred of Jews and Jewish suffering is the oxygen of the Zionist movement, and from the very beginning has been to deliberately incite hatred of the Jew and then, in feigned horror, use it to justify the existence of the Zionist state – this is, of course, Machiavellianism raised to the highest degree. Thus, the Zionists thrive on hatred and suffering of Jews, and seek to benefit thereby through keeping Jews in perpetual fear, causing them to ignore the true nature of Zionism, and instead to consider the Zionist state is their salvation.

ANTI-SEMITISM BY POLITICAL ZIONISM

Although Zionists and others dispute it, the undeniable fact is that revolutionary secular and apostate elements in the Jewish community in Europe contributed greatly to hostility towards Jews after World War I. This aroused hatred of Jews in general among many non-Jews. While a prisoner in 1924 in the fortress of Lansberg on the River Lech, Hitler wrote his Mein Kampf. We he became Chancellor of Germany in 1933, he was assisted by Goebbels, Roseberg and Streicher. From them came the declarations, “The Jews of Germany caused the defeat of Germany in the 1914-1918 war; the Jews of Germany were responsible for the terrible conditions in Germany that followed the war; the Jews of Germany are foreigners and they wish to remain foreigners; they have no loyalty to the country of their birth; they are not human; they are filthy dogs; they have no right to intrude into Germany’s affairs; there are too many Jews in Germany.

As far as Zionism is concerned, the founder of Zionism and apostate, Theodor Herzl, sought to intensify hatred of the Jew in order to enhance the cause of political Zionism. Here are some of his “pearls”:

“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)

Additional words from the vivid imagination of this dreamer, from p. 68 of Part I of his Diary.

So anti-Semitism, which is a deeply imbedded force in the subconscious mind of the masses, will not harm the Jews. I actually find it to be advantageous to building the Jewish character, education by the masses that will lead to assimilation. This education can only happen through suffering, and the Jews will adapt.

Hateful views of Jews as being subhuman did not have to be invented by Nazi theorists such as Hitler, Goebbels, Rosenberg and Streicher. This ideology was simply adapted from statements of political Zionists such as those found in the writings of the Zionist Yehezkel Kaufman in 1933.

In 1920 there were statements hostile to Jews expressed at Heidelberg University. These statements, arguing that Jews of Germany had caused the turmoil that followed the war; that the Jews of Germany had nothing in common with Germans, and that Germans had the right to prevent the Jews of Germany from intruding into the affairs of their volk were not made by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, but by Nahum Goldmann, who went in to become the President of the World Zionist Organization and head of the World Jewish Congress, and, indisputably, the most influential political Zionist in the world, second only to the Prime Minister of the State of Israel.

“We Jews are aliens… a foreign people in your midst and we… wish to stay that way. A Jew can never be a loyal German; whoever calls the foreign land his Fatherland is a traitor to the Jewish people“.

Who spoke these vile words? It was Jacob Klatzkin, the second of two political Zionist ideologists in Germany at the time, where the Jews of Germany were enjoying full political and civil rights. It was he who had advocated undermining Jewish communities as the one certain way of acquiring a state. “They had no qualms concerning tearing down the existing Jewish communities.”

Who spoke in a public address at a political Zionist meeting in Berlin and declared that “Germany… has too many Jews”? Was it Hitler or Goebbels? No, it was Chaim Weizman, later to become the first President of the State of Israel. This address was published in 1920, and, thus, four years before Hitler had even written Mein Kampf.

How many Zionist Jews know of this vicious treachery uttered by these senior political Zionist leaders, these apostates from the Jewish People? At the Nuremberg Trials of Major War Criminals, Nazi propagandist, Julius Streicher testified: “I did no more than echo what the leading Zionists had been saying”, it is clear that he had told the truth.

In addition to Hitler, Rosenberg, Goebbels and Streicher, many other Nazi leaders used statements from Zionists to validate their charges against the Jews of Germany. Such are the efforts of Zionist leaders to this very day to maintain a high degree of anti-semitism in order to enable them, in feigned horror, to then point to anti-semitism to support their idolatrous and anti-Jewish cause. In 1963, Moshe Sharett, then Chairman of the Jewish Agency, told the 38th Annual Congress of the Scandinavian Youth Federation that the freedom enjoyed by the majority of Jews imperiled Zionism, and at the 26th World Zionist Congress, the delegates were told that the Jew is endangered by the easing of anti-Semitism in the United States “We are endangered by freedom” he declared.

As we stated earlier, Zionism thrives on anti-Semitism. Ben Gurion declared, “…not always and not everywhere do I opposed anti-Semitism”. Zionists regularly pull out their handy “anti-Semite” race card against anyone, Jew or non-Jew, who dares to speak out against the wickedness of Zionism.

During World War II, the Lehi organization, an offshoot of Begin’s Irgun that was headed by Yitzchak Shamir sought an alliance with Nazis! The following is a quote from the writings of the Lehi in their contact with the Nazis:

"The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East ... The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany's side ... The cooperation of the Israeli freedom movement would also be in line with one of the recent speeches of the German Reich Chancellor, in which Herr Hitler stressed that any combination and any alliance would be entered into in order to isolate England and defeat it."

To those who assume that Zionists have been on the side of freedom and equality, these words seem strange. However, to those who understand the root of Zionism, which is the transformation and eradication of the concept of the traditional Jew and Judaism, these statements are not strange at all. They are to be expected.

The Zionists agreed with Nazism in general, even prior to the advent of Nazism. They believed that Jews could not, and should not, live in harmony in any other society in the world, and that should be removed from those societies for the benefit of those societies. They believed that the new Jewish existence in its own State would remake the image of Jews as “useless” and “parasites.” These ideas existed long before Adolf Hitler!

There is a huge amount of literature describing how the Zionists made it very difficult to save Jews during and after World War II. As various individuals and organizations were trying to arrange departures of Jews to western countries, the Zionists worked overtime to prevent this from happening. They expressed the opinion that building up the Jewish population of Palestine was more important than enabling Jews to go to third countries, and they insisted to western powers that Jews should not be accepted anywhere other than Palestine. Indeed, Yitzchak Greenbaum, a famous Zionist, proclaimed that “one cow in Palestine was worth more than all the Jews in Poland.” The infamous David Ben-Gurion said in 1938:

"If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel."

For more information about the brutal Zionist role during World War II, Click Here.

After the war, a Zionist “religious” leader, Rabbi Klaussner, who was in charge of displaced persons presented a report before the Jewish American Conference on May 2nd, 1948 :

"I am convinced people must be forced to go to Palestine...For them, an American dollar appears as the highest of goals. By the word "force", I am suggesting a programme. It served for the evacuation of the Jews in Poland, and in the history of the 'Exodus'... To apply this programme we must, instead of providing 'displaced persons' with comfort, create the greatest possible discomfort for them...At a second stage, a procedure calling upon the Haganah to harass the Jews."

It is ironic that the Zionists proclaim their State as the safe haven for the Jewish People, when since World War II no place on earth has been as dangerous for Jews, both spiritually and physically, as the Zionist state.

The Zionists worked relentlessly to create fear among Jews in the Arab countries after the Zionist state was established. Their tactic work most successfully in Yemen, Morocco, Iraq, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia.

It is common knowledge among Iraqi Jews that during 1949-1950 the famous Zionist, Mordechai ben Porat, who had the nickname of Morad Abu al-Knabel (Mordechai Bomber), was instrumental in seeking to bribe Iraqi officials after the creation of the Zionist state to pass laws to encourage Jews to leave Iraq. This was enhanced by the Zionists planting bombs in synagogues in Baghdad in March 1950. Information about this is readily available on the internet. For more information Click Here.

The writings of Mr. Naim Giladi document in detail what the Zionists did in Baghdad in 1950 to provoke the departure of the Jews to the Zionist state. The Zionists do not care what effect their policies have on the Jewish communities of any country. When they accuse European nations of every sin under the sun, do the Zionists care that this will produce hostility towards Jews? No! Not a bit. On the contrary, as we have discussed, they thrive on such circumstances, clinging to the vain hope that these Jewish communities will rush for the “salvation” of the “safe haven” of the Zionist Paradise where Jews are in constant danger as the Zionist regime undertakes every form of cruel provocation against non-Jews.

In more recent times the Zionists have sought every opportunity to encourage Jews to leave their home countries. Anytime there is even the smallest event of hostility toward Jews on the heels of Zionist policy, or if there are signs of economic distress and dislocation, the Zionists magnify it a thousand times, seek to ruthlessly humiliate the nations involved, and agitate for Jews to go to the Zionist state, the so-called “natural home” of the Jewish People. This has been the case in countries such as France, Argentina, Uruguay, the former Soviet Union and Egypt.

"When I use a prefix", said Humpty Dumpty in a rather zion-nasty tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more, nor less"....

....what most stung the government wasn't so much the overall conduct of it's troops, as the words of one of them:

"We're meant to purify this camp of something dirty here", he says, "but personally I don't understand why a young Hebrew soldier finds himself so far from home."

Not only did the Israeli actions in the Al Aida camp kill Huda Hawaja – a woman in no way connected to the attacks on Israelis – they missed the men they were intended to round up.

A few days after the incident, a young man from Al Aida camp blew himself up in the streets of Jerusalem.

"We teach [the non-Jew wishing to convert] about the history of the Jews, that, no matter what happens, the Jews will never be destroyed, unlike all the other nations of the world which only last for a short time and then they disappear."
- Eliezer C. Abrahamson, Who Is A Jew
=============================

An Israeli soldier prays beside his tank at the entrance to the Palestinian controlled city of Jenin after the Israeli army entered the city April 7, 2002. Israeli soldiers faced the toughest resistance yet in their West Bank offensive, trading round-the-clock fire with Palestinian gunmen Saturday in Nablus and Jenin. REUTERS/Gil Cohen Magen

A Palestinian woman looks at dead bodies in a house in the refugee camp in the West Bank town of Jenin April 13, 2002. Israeli tanks swept into three West Bank towns in defiance of U.S. demands to end its offensive, shortly after U.S Secretary of State Colin Powell called off talks with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. REUTERS/Goran Tomasevic

The burned remains of a Palestinian boy lay amidst toys in a house destroyed by Israeli soldiers in the Jenin refugee camp Saturday, April 13, 2002. In their search for Palestinian militants, Israeli forces destroyed hundreds of homes in the camp, using tanks, helicopters and bulldozers. Israeli forces retain tight control of the camp and surrounding towns and villages as part of a military offensive that begun March 29. (AP Photo/Jerome Delay)
http://www.nauseamanifesto.com/jenin/jeninPics/Photo43.jpg

A British man working with a UN aid agency was one of two people today killed in fighting in a refugee camp in the West Bank. He was identified as Ian Hook, 50, who headed a UN project to rebuild homes in a Jenin refugee camp.
========================

Changeling, thank you for your response. It is really difficult for someone who has not been posting on MIM regularly and doesn’t know the personalities to decipher some of these threads. I don’t claim to be any kind of expert on this issue, but here are a few of my thoughts on what you wrote anyway..

Firstly, as far as nation states such as Australia that are responsible for opression… Well yes I do think that they are a blight on humanity and must eventually be destroyed also but that’s an other topic. Also, I agree that ALL nationalism is reactionary. But there is a progressive element in some nationalist movements which is that of self-determination, anti-imperlialism and democracy. This doesn’t exist in all nationalism. For example I don’t think that there is any progressive content what-so ever in American or Australian nationalism. But in the case of countries that are being opressed or colonised by other countries there can be a real progressive element to nationalism which is the bit about getting rid of that form of opression.

On “Jewish Nationalism”, Jewdaism is a religion not a nation. I cant see how Jews as such constitute a nation when they live all over the world, are of all different races and colours, speak all different languages and are all part of different cultures, ecconomies and other nations. The state of Israel is a different issue.

Where I think that Israel is different (though there are similarities in some other places) is that it was created completely artificially and deliberately, out of a bunch of random people who had nothing in common except religion, for the explicit purpose of causing more division, creating a power base for the west in the middle east and on land that was already occupied by other nations and people.

Also, while there are other nations that have state religions etc (which I oppose anyway), and some areas have been divided into states on grounds of culture or religion, there is no other nation on this earth that was deliberately created for a specific religion. The whole idea of Zionism is a specifically Jewish nation. It cannot be secular or open by definition.

Now, I wouldn’t argue for a minute that the people of Israel should be destroyed or any attempt made to remove them. But there is no way that two separate nations and states can exist on the same tiny bit of ground at once. The only possible way for any kind of peace to exist in the long run is for there to be one single nation state for both groups of people. And because of what I said above this cant be the state of Israel.

Also I don’t think that there is any kind of imposing of a solution from me on the people most affected. The one state solution has a lot of support, it’s just that most people (including me) realise that this is unlikely in the near future. But quite frankly, after recent years more people, especially many Palestinians are starting to suspect that it may actually be the ONLY possible solution. But as far as it goes anyway, I am only trying to explain why I am anti-zionist.

I know that there are many progressive Israelis that support the Palestinians. However I DO NOT agree that such a thing as a “progressive Zionist” can exist. The ideology of Zionism is based on creating a state for ONE religion of people, that others can’t even convert to, on a piece of land where there is already an other nation. There is not even the possibility of assimilating (which is bad enough) into Israel for people who were not borne Jewish. There may be Zionists who are LESS-REACTIONARY than others, but there is no way that this ideology can ever be progressive.

As far as the South Africa analogy. Im not saying that it is exactly the same system. But there are real SIMILARITIES. Racism, ecconomically with using Palestinians for cheap labour and with the division into different semi-states. Also part of the reason why the analogy is so popular is because Israel gave so much aid to South Africa under Aphartide. Especially because when SA was going through it’s espansionist stage in the 80s (especially around the time of the war with Angola) Isreal so clearly supported their military plans and appeared to have similar plans itself.

Also I think that the analogy with South Africa (while maybe not entirely technically correct) does explain a little about why people feel so strongly about it. While South Africa was not the only racist state in the world and not even the most oppressive, it was the fact that it’s whole system was BASED on this ideology that was really offensive. The existence of Aphartide was an insult and degredation of all humanity. Israel and Palestine have got a bit of the same symbolic importance.

I still don’t quite understand what you are getting at with "Global distraction" so I will wait for your more detailed explanation. Sorry if all that was a bit rambly...

"A New Zealand" official is the only fucking source you have! is "A New Zealand Official" the name of a person, or does it refer to your homeless dad who spouts conspiracy theories all day between crack hits and sucking dick.Is this supposed to be a news source? I've seen comic books that are more realistic than this stupid shit.
At least its good to see that paranoid schizophrenics and the mentally challenged can type and set up a website.at least thier lives aren't completely useless.
By the way, since this article had to do with terrorism, perhaps the "author" could do some investigative journalism and see what its like to be a suicide bomber. in the privacy of his own home he could strap a bomb to himself and splatter his deranged brain all over the walls.
Oh, and why would Israel be setting up Al Qaeda cells. I'm not sure if you've been reading the real news, but Al Qaeda hates Israel and wants to detroy it by any means. Have you been paying attention to the fact that there has been constant arab-israeli wars for more than half a century?
This just in "A New Zealand Official" says you're retarded.

Of course you think you've read more realistic comic books, because that's ALL you read you filthy kike vermin.

Now that your tribes's heinous crimes against humanity are being exposed, the only thing you can resort to in the face of the ugly truth is to point your blood dripping claw at others and try to make them take the rap..as usual.This is the conduct your vile race has become famous for.

And everyone knows that when a rat like yourself is cornered all you've got left is to hiss at those confronting you with this truth, exposing your deranged, homicidal psychosis even more. Eat shit and die.

I suppose that the fact that the government of New Zealand is prosecuting Mossad agents for passport fraud is just an ant-semitic conspiracy too? Yeah right...

The BLAME GAME
by Travel Connections Tuesday February 15, 2005 at 02:03 PM

Nuclear Proliferation and International Arms Dealers?
Is the whole world still under British Colonial Rule?
Is Israel a British Colony?

don't take the bait being dangled in this thread ... they know how to control "debate" and it's what they're trying to do here.

the article that spawned this was obviously "cosmetically enhanced" by none other than nazihunter him/herself ... and all of the psychotically anti-jew posts - chalk them up to swarms of zionist jews, wasting their lives pretending not to be what they're apparently so proud of being, the only flag they really want to raise is the false-flag of terror ...

if we all ignore the zionists, they will go away ...

... anyway, is there any real need to go over the same crap over and over ... leave it simply at (depending on your side):

1.) the jews must get out of palestine.

2.) the palestinians must yield to zionism