Sex Work : Melbourne Indymedia

Two of the most rotten things about capitalism are the way it forces us to do things we wouldn't want to do unless we needed the money and the way everything is turned into a commodity. Moralism and puritanism are politically useless when discussing the question of prostitution because they are ultimately disempowering to sex workers.

Organisations like The Scarlet Alliance are tremendously important and there's nowhere near enough of this kind of organising. These groups work at the coal face of the sex industry to improve the conditions sex workers and give them a sense of their own worth and strength. In many ways these groups are like the trade unions you would find in conventional industries. In other ways, they go beyond what normal unions do because of the nature of the sex industry.

So should we adopt a lasse faire attitude to sex work? Is it the same as any other kind of manual labor, but instead of using your hands you’re using your sex organs? I don’t think so, because while it might be appealing to some to look at it in dry economic terms, the politics of sex work are in some ways far more complicated. The often brutal realities faced by countless sex workers around the world demand that we look at it more seriously. In prosperous Australia, many sex workers face abuses on a daily basis that you don’t commonly find in your typical work environments, especially if they work on the street. Most workers don’t risk dying from AIDS. Most of us don’t have to worry about being beaten or possibly killed by customers.

Decriminalisation/legalisation of drugs and prostitution is a good idea, not because these are great things, but because they have an umbilical link to the fucked up social relations that flow from capitalism - abuse, sexism, racism, alienation. Decriminalisation is worth supporting so that people have access to health care, aren't harassed by the cops or screwed over by pimps and dealers. With prostitution, it also makes it easier for sex workers to organise better for safer conditions and pay.

Prostitution is not the cause of women's oppression. But it's true to say that women's oppression has played a massive historical role in prostitution. You don’t have to look at extreme examples of sexual slavery to observe this -- it’s present in the most "high class" brothels on the planet. The women who work in them are treated as objects just as the streetwalkers are working in the shadows of some stinking laneway. Some women feel this feeds their sense of self-worth because they’ve internalised the logic of capitalism. If this man pays $1000 dollars to sleep with me I must really be worth something. As for women who are supposed to love the lifestyle, the myth of the happy hooker persists to this day, but if there is one that genuinely fits into this category there are a million who are only doing because they feel that this is the last option, their only way of scoring a hit or a way of trying to get back on their feet.

The thing is, capitalism gives us contradictory messages about what it is supposed to mean to be a woman. On the one hand, you're supposed to be an angelic, nurturing figure and on the other hand your supposed to be a steaming hot sex goddess. In the sex industry, this often translates into the myth of the happy prostitute. And kids are sexualised at a younger age now. It's not our natural human inclinations that push us in this direction. It's the cynical marketing of sleazy advertisers who want to steal your kid's pocket money. I want to see how human sexuality would develop if nobody was forced to sell sex to survive and capitalism didn’t sell us unrealistic illusions of what is meant to be desirable. Then we can really be sexually free.

Thank you for taking the issue seriously enough to write an article GMAB. It is a serious issue and I appreciate your contribution.

Now firstly, I think that you need to make a distinction between abuse, sex slavery, etc and prostitution generally. Yes sex slavery is probably more damaging to the individual than other kinds of slavery... But when you talk about for example the clothing industry, you dont say that sewing clothes for a living is inherently degrading because some workers are kept virtually as slaves. If you work in an office and your boss and clients regularly beat the crap out of you that is quite different from a normal office job. The same goes for prostitution.

As someone who has worked in the industry I can tell you from my own experience and that of my friends and co-workers, that while this may be more common in the sex industry; but it is in no way the norm. There is also no reason why you should put yourself at risk of disease (at leat no more than say, a doctor would) if you work in a safe environment and use precaution. Many brothels and agencies are very carefull about supplying information as well as condoms, dams etc to workers. Most brothels also have heavy security and there is no need to put yourself at risk (again, no more than any doctor or person who works in other peoples houses etc. would).

You mentioned the need for decriminalisation and reasons for that and I fully agree. But I would also add that the main problems workers in the industry face are caused by both the semi-legal nature of the industry. Also moralistic attitudes force workers to hide their occupation and this is one of the main things that makes organising difficult. If you are terrified of your friends and neighbours finding out what you do, or if you know that the police will not take you seriously then you are far more likely not to take a stand against abuse.

I think also that many of your statements show an ignorance and slightly qliched views about the industry and prostitutes themselves.

I certainly do not base me self-worth on how much someone will pay to sleep with me. I only do sex work occasionally these days (because I live in a very small town I only work when I am away); my other job is working in a super-market and I also study full time. I have a lot of pride in myself because I work hard at whatever I do and I support myself. I dont consider sex-work very different to the supermarket job, infact the clients tend to be a lot more respectfull in brothels.

I have met all kinds of people who work as prostitutes (they say about 1 million Australian women are engaged in the sex industry at any time, and given the transitory nature of the industry this means a hell of a lot of people have done it). I have met plenty of people who like the work, some who like the sex, some who like the councelling aspect and so on. I have also met a lot of people who are clearly trapped or using it as a last resort.

I probably fell in to it because of the last resort thing but I actually found it to be quite a reasonable job in the end. Infact, very different from what I had expected (due to all the anti-sex-industry brainwashing I had taken in). Many people who I have worked with have had similar experiences.

Also you conveniently forget the fact that there are many male prostitutes (though granted, most clients are men). It is not as cut and dry as just an issue of commodification of womens bodies. I know from experience that it is closer to being a massage therapist or a councellor than it is to being sexually abused or even having sex.

The myth of the "happy prostitute" is a myth... BUT no more a myth than that of the "fallen woman". The truth is that it is work.

"Scarlet Alliance through it’s objectives, policies and programs, aims to achieve equality, social, legal, political, cultural and economic justice for past and present workers in the sex industry, in order for sex workers to be self-determining agents, building their own alliances and choosing where and how they work.

http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/

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"MISSION STATEMENT :: SWOP focuses on safety, dignity, diversity and the changing needs of sex industry workers, to foster an environment which enables and affirms individual choices and occupational rights."

http://www.swop.org.au/

Something that came up in an earlier discussion that is relevant is what prostitutes actually do...

The client does not have the right to do whatever they like to you and you dont have to pretend to "love" them or anything (unless you agree to be payed more for acting or something).

Usually it is specifically stated what services the worker will provide. These are usually fairly basic. Anything else costs extra (and is between the worker and client) and the worker does not have to do anything that they dont want to. There is also no reason why that the worker should see clients they dont want to either.

Because there is such a labour shortage in the industry it is possible to quit a particular workplace at any time. Employers know that they need to keep certain standards because if they lose too many workers (which can happen very fast) they will go out of business.T hey need you more than you need them.

When working in a reasonable workplace, it is similar to giving a professional massage (though obviously more intimate). The client does not have the right to rape or abuse you or do anything you dont like.

Now obviously there are many clients and employers who are very dodgy. I dont believe that this would be any more the case than working in a bar or service-station if the industry were fully legalised and unionised. At the moment sex-worker groups deal with this by putting out "ungly mugs" lists and information about your rights. These are actually distributed by many brothels and agencies as well.

One thing to note is that I have not focussed on the problems in the industry much here - not because I dont recognise them - but because I think that the other side of the issues needs to be put forward also.

Thanks for the quick comments. Here's a few replies to some of your comments and insights.

"Thank you for taking the issue seriously enough to write an article GMAB. It is a serious issue and I appreciate your contribution."

It's a huge issue that would take many pages to address satisfactorily. But we have an interesting and clarifying dialogue. I fully acknowledge and respect your insights gained through experience.

"I think that you need to make a distinction between abuse, sex slavery, etc and prostitution generally."

I wouldn't say all of these things are equal and the same. The word prositution is used to described a wide range of how the trade is carried out, some of it is outright abuse and some of it is less harmful. It becomes problematic when the "legitimate" parts of the industry provide cover, or a cloak of respectability, to the outrageously abusive parts of the industry. This refers to the "the semi-legal nature of the industry" as you accuratley describe it. While I think the whole industry needs to be cleaned up by collective organisation by sex sorkers, I am most concerned about the most exploited and abused sections of the sex industry because this is the group with the greatest need for support. The old working class principle of "The strong should help the weak" seems to be taken seriously by the Scarlet Alliance which is a brilliant development.

"But when you talk about for example the clothing industry, you dont say that sewing clothes for a living is inherently degrading because some workers are kept virtually as slaves."
Sex isn't inherently degrading and sewing isn't inherently degrading. Both of these things can be great things to do (and I know one which I'd prefer to do). I don't have a problem with sex. I have a problem with the way that capitalism, props up women's oppression and distorts human sexuality. When you compare your sex work to working in a supermarket it just shows how shitty working in a supermarket is, doesn't it?

"You mentioned the need for decriminalisation and reasons for that and I fully agree. But I would also add that the main problems workers in the industry face are caused by both the semi-legal nature of the industry. Also moralistic attitudes force workers to hide their occupation and this is one of the main things that makes organising difficult. If you are terrified of your friends and neighbours finding out what you do, or if you know that the police will not take you seriously then you are far more likely not to take a stand against abuse."

Excellent point!

"I think also that many of your statements show an ignorance and slightly qliched views about the industry and prostitutes themselves. I certainly do not base me self-worth on how much someone will pay to sleep with me."

Anyone who has walked around with a large wad of cash in their pocket knows the aphrodisiac qualities of money. It makes you feel powerful, like you can have anything you want. Sorry if I gave you the impression that I think all prostitutes base their sense of self-worth on the money they recieve (I don't), and it's good that you never have, but I think this is a significant factor for many women who work in the sex industry. A disproportionately high number of women with a history of abuse work in the sex industry.

"Also you conveniently forget the fact that there are many male prostitutes (though granted, most clients are men)."

Yes, I didn't talk about male prostitutes/rent boys because from what I know they don't seem to represent a large part of the industry. I'd apply what I said equally to the guys.

"It is not as cut and dry as just an issue of commodification of womens bodies."

I agree, this is a mulitfaceted issue, commodification plays a significant part though.

"The myth of the "happy prostitute" is a myth... BUT no more a myth than that of the "fallen woman". The truth is that it is work."

Yep. It's a dangerous myth that feds into all kinds of silly fantasies that prevent men (and probably some women) from identifying with prostitutes as fellow workers. It is indeed a form of work but it is more complicated than that because it involves others aspects of power and sexual objectification that obscure our true sexuality. In my vision of socialism, people would not be buying and selling sex. It would be a natural and hopefully mutually rewarding thing that allows us to develop into the fullest human beings we can be.

The Victorian notion of the fallen women, is loaded with silly and moralistic assumptions. There really are young women, and some men, who are in serious trouble with drugs or whatever who are prone to being seriously exploited and fucked over in the world of prostitution. You might not be interested, but someone with your knowledge and insights could do great work for people in that situation. I have really enjoyed taking part in this discussion. Thanks

I seem to recall a list called the ' ugly mugs' list of nasty clients practising excessive sadism and /or greed, etc
With todays net it should be a simple matter to set up a combinatorial auction to bet on their permanent retirement.

Sort of like that movie " Unforgiven" for the noughties.

Ugly mug client John Spinifex will no longer be a customer from ...( insert date here )

My 2 e-cents

and my ass is chapped.

But I need the money.

Just a quick point, I think progressives should support sex workers in their fight for better conditions but I don't think we have any reason to support the sex industry, which is composed of brothel owners, pimps and other bosses. As in any area of capitalism, the interests of the workers are not the same as those who profit from them.

If the situation is as you describe it, and I have no reason to doubt you, that should make it easier for workers to organise and elevate those people on the lowest level of sex work to a safer working environment.

I fully agree with your last 2 points GMAB.

I guess the point Im trying to get across is that it is extremely difficult for even the best off workers in the industry to do much organising because of the stigma attached to sex work. If you are terrified of your community finding out what you do it is very difficult to be involved in any kind of organising; for your own rights or those of others.

Also there is very ingrained prejudice against sex workers from even many more progressive people and groups, which makes getting taken seriously difficult.

One example I can think of is the work the Scarlett Alliance has done with illegal migrant workers. Many (not all - the point is to avoid sweeping generalisations) were sex workers before they came to Australia, and many have made informed decisions to come here to work because the industry is a lot safer, the pay higher and it is a first world country.

Many of these workers come to Australia on contracts. The way it works is that they pay off a certain amount from their wages to pay for their entry in to the country. This usually takes a few months. Once they have paid their contracts they can continue working in the same place but keep all their money (which many do), or they can move on.

Because the agencies that organise this are usually known in the communities where they recruit they cannot afford to back out of their part of the deal. So what has tended to happen in some places is that brothels are tipped off (obviously by DIMIA itself) when a DIMIA raid is going to happen (these often happen at the same times too). The brothel ensures that there are a few Australian citizens working at the time and that the only illegal migrants who are working are those that have nearly paid off their contracts. This means that those workers get deported and the agency does not have to hold it's side of the bargain. It also frees up space for more workers on contracts (who earn the brothel a greater cut of the money).

When Scarlett Alliance tried to bring this up at people smuggling and slave labour conferences they were not taken seriously. Moralistic attitudes about how prostitution itself was intrinsically degrading and needed to be stopped got in the way of discussing a real concrete problem for workers.

{note: I have not been involved in SA much personally so if I got any of that wrong, appologies. As far as my being active goes - I have several issues which prevent me from being active in any movements at the moment. This is not a situation Im happy with, but hopefully it will change in the future.}

Yes it would be nice if people could just have sex and work when they wanted to. Then prostitution and all forms of wage-labour would cease to exist. But that is not the society we live under yet. We need to deal with the actual situation for workers. And to be able to do that the stigma needs to be gotten rid of and people should be encouraged to come out and stand up for their rights.

You won't find any diagreement from me, HWW. Good luck with your situation.

"With todays net it should be a simple matter to set up a combinatorial auction to bet on their permanent retirement."

The better that idea sounds. Especially for this industry and with its current "semi-legal" status.

A few drive buys and you'd clean it right up and the tips would go up too.

Over history sex work has occurred in homes, brothels and other places, even temples - whether ruled by capitilists, monarchs, socialists, communists.
For some of us it prostitution goes beyond just the sex part of the work. For me it is literally my spiritual calling and a highly developed vocation. Since becoming a whore 15 yrs ago, at the not so tender age of 28, I have blossomed and become a highly motivated contributor to society at many levels beyond the bedroom.
I am humbled to have been a willing participant of many thousand deep intimate encounters with strangers, where with clothes laid aside, two souls connect through acts of sexual pleasure.
I have been equally delighted and balanced by the other pure earthy & raunchy sessions I have had with the broadest range of clients - men, women and trannys from male and female backgrounds.

The spiritual, economic, mental and sexual independence I enjoy as a self employed sex worker are what threaten others who would try and use Shame to control me onto their moral paths. To them I extend a warm welcome to come and get fucked in the nicest [possible ways.

Beyond happy,
a blessed whore

I wouldn't say that it is all great. Just like any other job it depends so much on you as an individual and on your environment...

But I have often thought that some people and groups are against prostitution as a whole because it promotes not only financial, but emotional independence in so many women.

Even if it isn't the main thing they want to do it at least gives people a stepping stone to whatever they do want. It also forces people to take better care of themselves physically and emotionally (though this is probably true of most professional work to a certain extent). And it sure gives a better understanding of human nature.

All this detracts totally from the power of the of the husband, church, family etc...

I can see where you are coming from Saul and I applaud much of the work you've done in the Private Workers Alliance especially on HIV. In case I didn't spell it out clearly enough, the original piece was not about further stigmatising sex workers but providing a few ideas on how progressives might relate to sex work. I made it clear I'm for sex workers organising for better conditions especially among those who face the greatest difficulties on the street.

One of the first things I said was that moralism and puritanism are completely useless. Obviously when you're up against the likes of Fred Nile countering this kind of nonsense is a large part of what sex worker activists need to do.

I don't have a lasse faire attitude to prostitution because I think the monetary transaction that defines prostitution is for the most part based on power relationships which distort human sexuality. Whether or not you personally feel blessed in your occupation (and good for you if that's the case), for the most part people come to sex work out of a situation of helplessness and necessity. I don't think it's a great concession for those of us who want to see better conditions for sex workers to admit this. If we don't face up to it (and I'm not saying you don't), abuses inevitably continue unabated.

I disagree with your individualised, small-business kind of take on prostitution because I don't see it as the kind of analysis that can seriously confront the systemic aspects of sexual oppression. It's a bit like union leaders who act as negotiators between workers and bosses. They aren't interested in tearing down the system that makes sure workers always have the shitty end of the stick because they'd be out of the job. If we're every going to deal with sexual oppression, I think we need to adopt a revolutionary consciousness that makes empowerment in every sense a reality for everybody. As things stand, it's not as if all of us are going to become sex workers and nor should we have to.

"I don't have a lasse faire attitude to prostitution because I think the monetary transaction that defines prostitution is for the most part based on power relationships which distort human sexuality."

This is really the equivalent of saying that monetary transactions and power relations distort human friendship between a councellor and their client. Prostitutions is not about the sexuality of the worker (their private sex lives and relationships occur outside of work). I have often heard workers describe themselves as "sex therapists" which is actually very accurate.

"Whether or not you personally feel blessed in your occupation (and good for you if that's the case), for the most part people come to sex work out of a situation of helplessness and necessity."

This is the case with most work in this society. There is NO DIFFERENCE. I once did fruit picking for that reason and found it to be FAR WORSE.

"I don't think it's a great concession for those of us who want to see better conditions for sex workers to admit this. If we don't face up to it (and I'm not saying you don't), abuses inevitably continue unabated. "

You need to actually listen to the people you are trying to help. We know the people and the industry and how it works. Everyone is well aware of the bad side, but not the good side. For too long "comodification" and "sexism" have been used as a cover for not listening to workers and for avoiding the difficult issues (I'm not saying thats what YOU are doing btw). It is much easier to say that "it should be legal to help the prostitutes but we still dont like or encourage it" than to stand up and say "this is a legitimate profession".

Pride in who you are and what you do is one of the most important issues to be adressed. The stigma attached is the NO1 BIGGEST BARRIER to organising. Low self-esteem and lack of pride (in what is a necessary, skilled and usefull profession) is one of the main reasons why many people who are in a position to stand up for their rights don't.

If you look at SWOP and SA and other orgs sites you will see that they contain tips for work and stories about different good as well as bad experiences. This is really an important issue for all of us in the industry.

I have never worked independently. But I think Saul is right to raise the issue because there is a missconception that only the most desperate work the streets or advertise privately. I know that there are a lot of benefits to it and that it suits a lot of people better than working for agencies.

There has been a lot of organising done among private workers over the years too. For example phone lines have been set up so that workers can phone in before going to a job and leave details about where they are going and when they are coming back to help with safety. There is also a lot of organising between small groups of workers to have joint advertising, dropp offs, security and registration. As well as of course, the "ugly mugs" lists which are for brothels and street workers.

These types of cooperative arrangements are nothing like union officials having links to industry. They are actually really good for solidarity, safety and conditions. They are also a good alternative (if you can make it happen) to being exploited by business.

Again, it is a great thing for workers and encourages collective and self empowerment and independence.

Sometimes people see a councellor because they need to talk to someone. They may have no one else to talk to or they may prefer to talk to an objective and independent outsider. This is not an equal relationship because it is not about the councellor's emotions. However, it should not be a power relationship either and most councellors choose to be councellors because they enjoy helping people. Same with massage.

Now sometimes people need someone to talk too AND/OR someone to be intimate with. Sometimes it is because they have no body else, sometimes it is because brothels are open 24/7 while councellors arent, and sometimes they just want to see a stranger with no strings. Again... This is NOT about the workers sexuality and it doesnt have to be - in fact it shouldn't be a power relationship - and when you work in the industry you find that most clients don't really want that either.

If their was adequate opportunities (like education and jobs) and less moralism; I think that we would see a lot of people like Saul going into the industry because they want to. Because they like meeting and helping different people.

I am not going to ignore the revolting exploitation that takes place in the sex industry all over the world every day and I don't think organisations that represent sex workers should either. As I said earlier, I don't think it's the job of progressives to propagandise for the sex industry bosses and pimps. If sex worker organisations pander to the bosses and defend the industry on the basis that "it's great to be a prostitute" they are acting in a very similar way to trade union officials acting as mediators between labour and capital who ultimately prop up this fucked up system. As a socialist, these people are enemies of sex workers as far as I'm concerned.

You can't compare Saul's rarified situation to the millions of prostitutes around the world who suffer from the worst kinds of abuses. Saul is not actually representative of the vast majority of sex workers, the work Saul does sounds like it is more on the level of a hands on sex therapist. Good for Saul. I'm more concerned with the millions of women (and some men) who are selling their bodies because they have no other option, whether as a result of poverty, lack of education or work skills, homelessness, abuse or drug addiction. The job of progressives should be to fight for better rights for women workers to jobs, education and health care. This is actually how you prevent many of the abuses we find in the sex industry because fewer people are forced into it. I'm not naive enough to think their won't be a sex industry so you have to simultaneously campaign for better conditions for sex workers without moralism. The kind of pride in ones work you raised is a complicated issue, that in a way creates a new kind of moralism. This is exactly what I mean by the small business take on prostitution. It shows a middle-class consciousness that relates directly to the logic of capitalism. I actually want to scrap capitalism and have no interest in maintaining power imbalances. What next are we going to start lecturing sex workers on the need for them to take pride in their work and that they have to counsel clients as well as fuck them? I don't think so. The best pride workers like us can develop is the pride that comes with winning better conditions.

The power relationships I'm talking about are more complicated then the counselor example you raised because they have deep economic and sexual dimensions (and I don't think anyone should have to pay for counseling by the way). Generally speaking women are oppressed economically, and women are still oppressed on the basis of their gender. The way prostitution has developed historically reflects the social disadvantage faced by women in class society.

I simply not true that there is no difference in how someone comes to work in a conventional job or as a sex worker. Look up the statistics on social disadvantage, drug use and histories of abuse. Prostitutes are disproportionately affected by these factors. You can point to lots of shitty low paying jobs like fruit picking, but that doesn't alter this fact.

I agree that some, and perhaps Sheila Jeffries is one example, fail to satisfactorily handle these questions because of an over-emphasise on the gender aspects of prostitution. That's a failure of identity politics. But I don't think the response to that should be another form of identity politics. I reckon these questions need to be looked at in the broadest context and not just through the narrow prism of personal experience because we want to feel good about ourselves. Together we face problems of literally global proportions so we need to be honest about the way we deal with them. Personally, I never feel better about myself than when I'm kicking some bosses arse.

HWW, you say: "But I have often thought that some people and groups are against prostitution as a whole because it promotes not only financial, but emotional independence in so many women."

But in the case of women working for brothels - wouldn't you say that just like any other industry they are selling their labour power to a boss who exploits them and earns money from their hard work?

I know that you are drawing out the positives of the sex industry, and that's a good thing to hear in contrast to the usual...but maybe you can go too far in the other direction and gloss over the fact that at the end of the day brothel owners are bosses just like the rest and it is still an unjust boss-to-worker employment relationship.

When you say you get 'emotional independance' from the role - how would you say the work does that?

I can see what you're saying when you relate it to sex therapy, counselling and massage work. And its certainly the case that even though workers are exploited and alienated in all work under capitalism, it is possible to have jobs that are challenging and fulfilling. A lot of people find that in a lot of different work roles, but it doesn't make them any less exploited or alienated as workers.

I guess bc sex work is so stigmatised and singled out as a job some sex workers will find it important to bend the stick the other way in discussion of the industry. Thats probably a good thing - but I'd say it'd be better for sex workers as a whole to have more of a unionist attitude - rather than identifying with the brothel owning bosses and talking up the industry on their behalf.

...that you haven't even understood what we are saying. I find your comments totally offensive. Manily because it is clear that you are not even reading, let alone trying to understand our arguments.

Have you ever volunteered for SWAP? Do you have any experience in the industry?

We dont need to be saved. We dont need uneducated and uninformed leftys telling us about our profession.

You would not take this attitude with a building worker why take it with us?

Have you ever been addicted to drugs? Have you ever seen someone OD or suffer from withdrawals? Have you ever even TALKED to a migrant worker in the sex industry? Have you been talked to ANY of the health workers or organisers? Have you even BEEN in a brothel? Have you been beaten up or attacked? Have you ever been that desperate? I have.

Your BS about "high class brothels" is typical Australian lefty lies and totally uninformed. I know someone who doesn't know the industry when they start making these BS distinctions between different kinds of workers. I have tried to get through that this is BS to you but you are not listening.

WE don't fall for it. WE struggle every day not to let society beat us down with it's bullshit and you fuckers come in and TELL US to be victims! The majority of workers in the industry know that self and collective empowerment is the key. NOT lefty rhetoric and ideology and NOT the party line. You treat someone like a victim rather than a strong and capable individual and that is what they will become.

I HAVE worked in the sex industry - as a receptionist for a brothel, and as a driver for my housemate.

In fact, I've posted some of the contributions on this thread to a similar discussion at portland - for the sake of enlightening a few righteous Americans.

Thanks HWW and Saul - 'preciate it:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/07/292539.shtml

Sorry.. I missed your comment somehow Bella.

"When you say you get 'emotional independance' from the role - how would you say the work does that?"
What I mean is that a professional councellor doesn't tell the person they are councelling about what a shit week they've had or their own psycological problems. That's not what they are their for.

Also, TU is fine... But independent workers need to organise too (they are not exploiting anyone - they just work for themselves... like a gardener or cleaner). It is ridiculous to suggest that you arent being a good revolutionary if you dont work for an agency and organise against the boss. That is why SA and other groups represent all workers (NOT owners) whether they work independently or not.

Also workers co-operatives could work really well in the industry as I outlined above.

I'm getting a bit worked up. But I think you missinterpreted my post. Also... Where have you worked (Country? City?). Because there is a great difference between the industry in different places.

The reason I started this thread was to have a conversation with you and others about how progressives should relate to the sex industry. Partly this was so that I could clarify my own ideas on this subject. I didn't do it to piss you off so don't let it get to you. If I have political differences in a debate I'm perfectly entitled to express them just as you are. I don't think I need to have worked as a prostitute to offer a point of view. In this kind of forum I think the fewer personal details we go into the better.

The fact that I don't automatically agree with everything you've written shouldn't be taken as an indication that I don't respect you or haven't read what you've said. I've taken what you've said very seriously. That's why I went to the effort in the first place.

I've told you why I think sex work is different to other kinds of work but you haven't made a convincing argument against it so why should I change my position? In contrast to the idea of prostitutes being victims I've argued for an aggressive fight undertaken by the workers themselves. We are all in some sense victims of capitlaism but that doesn't make it impossible for us to fight back. In some cases it pushes us to fight harder. In the case of building workers for example, building workers have a strong and militant union largely as a m ilitant response to the wretched conditions that have persisted in that industry. And building workers are still dying on sites.

Sexism and racism exist. Should we say women and non-whites aren't oppressed because we are worried they will think of themselves as victims? I don't think so. I think we need to confront and acknowlegde these problems just as we should confront and acknowlegde the problems in the sex industry.

I'm glad to hear about the widespread recognition of the need to organise and empower. That's great! Maybe you can write a new article about it.

As for the "high class brothel" business, all of us seek validation in some way. None of us are immune from the dominant capitalist ideology.

With the "enemy" line I should have made it clear I was referring to bosses and pimps.

GMAB - Do you know why a large number of Victorian prostitutes CHOOSE to work in brothels or for escort agencies rather than advertising themselves privately (which is much more profitable)?

It has to with the services that the so-called "bosses" you refer to provide for the "workers", in terms of advertising, staffing telephones, organising transport, ensuring the legitimacy of clients, and provision of health services and fuck-rooms.

For some sex-workers, the "middle man" (usually a woman) who YOU refer to as "the enemy" is worth the convenience.

I think some of what you say HWW misses what the role of trade unions should be. Trade unions aren’t just there to make an industry safer, and to improve people’s working conditions and income – above and beyond that they should be the means by which workers unite with one another not just to improve their immediate circumstances but to challenge the whole structure of their work and industry. You talk about the SA like it should just be there to improve the industry – but that doesn’t challenge the idea of brothel bosses profiting from other peoples’ labour. As nice or seemingly progressive as a brothel owner might be – at the end of the day I still class them as the same breed of parasite as any other boss (not necessarily at a personal level, but on a political level).

Self-employed sex workers can get organized – and of course that is good for their safety, and would at some level add to the movement of workers employed by brothels – but it is not the same thing as the latter workers getting organized in their union.

Re painting sex workers as victims. I don’t think that’s what GMAB means, or that it is even implicit in what GMAB is saying. At a general level, all workers are *victims* of capitalism – but that does not mean that our whole identity is an identity of *the victim*, or that socialists want it to be. Whilst on the one hand workers are victims of the system, we are also the very people who have the potential to wage a decisive fight against the system. So far from being no more than victims, workers have the potential to be the victors and to change society for the better.

Also, you say that socialists would not argue in this way with building workers. I’d disagree with that. A self-employed builder could argue in the way Saul does about how great his job is, how creative he feels, what he contributes to society, how much money he makes etc etc. All fine. And some waged (ie. not self-employed) builders might make the same kind of argument. But socialists would still say the same thing – that the position of workers is inherently one of exploitation and alienation for the simple fact that they don’t own or have direct control over their labour, the means of production or the products of their labour. So socialists would make similar arguments about exploitation and alienation to all workers because we think all workers share that basic common experience and interest.

>>> "socialists would still say the same thing – that the position of workers is inherently one of exploitation and alienation for the simple fact that they don’t own or have direct control over their labour"

Actually, if you HAD ANY EXPERIENCE in the sex-industry, you would know that brothels and agencies have a terribly difficult time getting staff to call in and make themselves available for work, since THE WORKER CHOOSES. The sex-industry worker--in the legalized setting--has full control over their labor - more so than you do, I suspect, bella.

I could point to heaps of industries, ones I've worked in like market research, where the workers turn up when they want, fake sickies every second shift, or don't bother coming in at all. There's nothing novel about that - its just resenting your work and wanting to get on with your own life, rather than selling your precious time to make somebody else rich.

I don't really see a huge difference.

People who don't work in the sex industry obviously don't know from first hand experience what its like on the inside of the industry - but many of us, like me, will know people who have been and are in the industry and related jobs like stripping.

I had a relative commit suicide recently. She used to work as an escort. One of her clients drove a car at her and seriously injured her leg. Her life over the last 15 years was a spiral of drugs, depression and sex work. Whether the sex work exacerbated or relieved her depression I couldn't really say for sure - but she had the kind of shitty working conditions so many sex workers put up with.

I'm just not comfortable with people talking in such glowing terms about an industry and its bosses that use women to serve their own profit motives. That some people have a postive experience with the industry is good for them - but to gloss over all the problems doesn't really do anything for the thousands of women who are struggling in the industry and would love to see a fight for change.

Thanks to everyone for their input (sorry for getting shitty before). This is something that needs to be discussed.

GMAB... You have not actually convinced me that it is different. You have raised that there is a lot of abuse that goes on in the industry. But you have NOT actually said how it is qualitatively different from abuse that may go on in for example the textile industry.

"In the case of building workers for example, building workers have a strong and militant union largely as a m ilitant response to the wretched conditions that have persisted in that industry. And building workers are still dying on sites"
BUT you do not claim that building houses for a living is intrinsically degrading. You do not say that the building industry should be abolished.

"As for the "high class brothel" business, all of us seek validation in some way. None of us are immune from the dominant capitalist ideology. "
What I just said to you is that this distinction does not really exist. In NSW there are a range of different places but they ALL pay similarly (mostly around $65 per half hour... but between $50 and $90). I actually dont like working in the more "up-market" places because I find the middle of the range (if you could call it that) more comfortable. Also, as we have said repeatedly - there is such a labour shortage that you dont have to work anywhere you dont like.

There are NONE of these "high class" or "low class" places you talk about in Australia. There is NO provalidged layer of workers. Yes, there are some that are forced in to it.. But this really not the norm in Australia at all. It is VERY uncommon.

Bella..
"So socialists would make similar arguments about exploitation and alienation to all workers because we think all workers share that basic common experience and interest. "
I don't have a problem with this statement. But have been involved with socialist group (not yours) and one of the disagreements I have with them is that they do not see prostitution in the same way as other work. They discourage it because of its social stigma basically. I thought, and still think that this is a TOTAL COP OUT.

Also, independent workers are still workers. You could hardly describe a house cleaner as a "boss" or even a small business. They work provately for warges. That is what independent workers are and they need to organise just as much as anybody else.

I know what the roles of TUs are but this is just starting to sound too formalistic and workerist even for marxists. A certain form of TU is not the be-all and end-all. It is about collective empowerment and better conditions for everyone. TU's can be down-right counter revolutionary at times too as we all know. It's not the form but the content that counts.

Also - I dont see receptionists (though there is sometimes a real division between them and workers which needs to be adressed), other staff or even clients as my enemies. Just like in a supermarket I dont see the other workers, the clients (or even my boss who is a very hard working small business person - though I do recognise the difference in interests there) as the enemy.

The ruling class and the state are the enemy. Not every manager or small business owner.

Opere Citato... Thanks for your input. I got you confused with GMAB before.

I have met a lot of people who had really bad experiences. But there are also people who have had really good experiences. ITS JUST WORK LIKE ANY OTHER WORK.

In my case it wasn't really good or bad. But it was a way out of an abusive relationship for me and it was there when I needed it. It not only helped me financially but it gave me back a lot of the confidence and independence I had lost. I dont think that welfare would have helped because it would not have given me that independence. I'm not saying it's the same for everyone. Thats just my experience and because of it I will DEFEND PROSTITUTION TO THE DEATH!

I diddn't mean to say that you shouldn't give an opinion. As I said before I value your contributions and normally I would totally argue against any suggestion that you shouldn't have an opinion. It's just that this issue does affect me personally - so if I get a little bit worked up and vitriolic take it with a grain of salt :)

Capitalism creates the belief that people can be bought and sold. Prostitution is one expression of this. Social relations are also distorted in waged labour and marriage. In the overwhelming majority of cases it will be a man, still likely to get higher pay than a woman, paying to have sex with a woman. This shows the differences in control that men and women have over their lives. It shows how economic necessity can push us to do things we have no actual desire to do. If economic necessity and the subjegation of women were taken out of the picture, there would be no need for prostitution.

Unlike building houses, the act of selling sex would not be in any way necessary in a successful socialist society because our material needs would be satisfied and sex, and the emotional intimacy that it normally entails, could happen in an unencumbered way. People could live their lives according to their true inclinations and feelings in relationships that are free from the burdens of capitalistic society. This is why I see prostitution as being different from other forms of work, I hope that nuclear power plant workers and weapons developers will have something else to do too under socialism. I don't know that much about your personal politics, HWW, or if you consider yourself a socialist but wouldn't we be better off if that was the case?

Socialists don't make a point of going around saying abolish prostitution as it is clearly a symptom of capitalism and women's oppression that isn't going to dissappear until we have a major social transformation that rectifies the class imbalances at the heart of capitalism. Short of a revolution, the problems that exist inside the sex industry will never be solved by even the best sex workers' collective, though we would fully support their efforts. Especially since the Sexual Revolution in the West, some prostitution has taken on a different character but that doesn't mean there aren't steal gross abuses. As I've said before, the people at the bottom with the greatest need should be the first priority for sex worker activists and progressives. For most women in the sex industry, prostitution remains a means to an end and not an end in itself so I personally don't see the need for anybody to defend it to the death. I don't think you should have had to become a sex worker to get out of your predicament. I think its much better if people in those situations have access to jobs with living wages and quick and effective welfare support. We get these things by fighting politically.

HWW, I sincerely hope you haven't taken my comments as an insult to you or other sex workers. We may be coming at it from different angles but I think we've had some agreement on different points. This is the most productive discussion I've taken part in on this site so thanks for that.

HWW - I'm sympathetic with everything that you're saying about sex work 'just being work'. At one level of course that is true. Like you've said in so many posts, it has its up and its downs, you can get nice clients or complete fuck wits, have a safe experience or a dangerous experience depending on your employer etc etc.

But after acknowleding that where does the acknowledgement of sexism in the industry go? I think this discussion has been weak on pointing out that sexism does have a significant role in the industry.

Sexism is:

1. implying women are less capable or intelligent than men.
2. designating all tasks requiring emotion, nurturing, care and affection to women.
3. encouraging women to be seen only in sexual terms, policing their sexuality or encouraging them to be and be seen as one dimensional sex objects.

That's just some of what sexism is - and the entire sex industry from stripping to porn to prostitution and escorting OFTEN (but not always) works to reinforce those stereotypes.

NOTE that I am not saying that women in the sex industry can't subvert these stereotypes, can't have confidence or pleasure in their work, are doomed to being victims - but I am saying that the sex industry is the most obviously sexist industry around (ie. its sexist in the most obvious way an industry can be).

This is also not to say that there's not contradictory messages in the industry about women, their strength and independance.

I don't think GMAB is arguing for the abolition of the sex industry - sounds more like GMAB would like to see a fight for control of the industry by the workers themselves, full profits to the workers themselves, and then hopefully at some point in future the abolition of the trade of sex for money. So if women and men want to give sex freely to each other they can - they enter under no economic constraint and with full control.

About brothel owners as hard working small business people....that's one way of looking at it. But I could not justify owning a small business and employing people no matter what the business. It may sound moralistic - but I think it is a backward idea to believe in progressive and 'nice' small business as a way forward.

Anyway...losing the thread of what I'm talking about here.....thanks for keeping up the discussion all

"Unlike building houses, the act of selling sex would not be in any way necessary in a successful socialist society because our material needs would be satisfied and sex, and the emotional intimacy that it normally entails, could happen in an unencumbered way. People could live their lives according to their true inclinations and feelings in relationships that are free from the burdens of capitalistic society"

This was the point I was trying to get across with the councelling and the massage thing. They are very similar and I actually think that even under a socialist society "Sex Therapy" may be uselfull for some people. With many disabled people it is practically a necessity now. This may not involve a monetary transaction... But then neither would building houses.

"Socialists don't make a point of going around saying abolish prostitution as it is clearly a symptom of capitalism and women's oppression that isn't going to dissappear until we have a major social transformation that rectifies the class imbalances at the heart of capitalism."
I don't think that it is a symptom of capitalism (r class society generally). I think that it is a usefull thing to do.

"For most women in the sex industry, prostitution remains a means to an end and not an end in itself so I personally don't see the need for anybody to defend it to the death."
But there ARE a large percentage of women who actually enjoy it and see it as a usefull occupation. You should not attempt to tell THEM that they are being degraded or aren't really happy. I have know so many people who were obviously in bad situations. But still I have known many others who chose to do the work and were proud of it.

I guess my point is that if under some future utopia where wage labour and slavery were abolished... People may go around just having sex with strangers because they like it or to help them out. And people may go around helping each other build housed. Either way their is no financial transaction and human relationships and creativity lose their exploitative side. So where is the qualitative difference? I have heard this explanation before... But I still do not see it.

Anyway.. As I said I welcome your opinions, I agree with much of them and the discussion helps to clarify my own thoughts on the issue too.

I think when GMAB talks about selling sex not being necessary under socialism, he/she is not necessarily saying ‘lets abolish the sex industry’ – but rather lets fight for a society where people aren’t alienated, sexually repressed and lonely. Lets work out how to get a society where sexual expression has nothing to do with economics - but everything to do with free expression, spontaneity, freedom of choice.

There will most likely under socialism (for a time) be people with all sorts of needs and problems related to sex. But they could be dealt with in a different way all together – rather than making someone’s sexuality a commodity, people could choose to have sex with who they like and use sex as a therapeutic method if they chose to but without being under economic compulsion to do so.

First.."About brothel owners as hard working small business people...."
NO NO NO! I was talking about my boss at my supermarket job who I have known for years and works 16 hour days. I know we have a definate conflict of interest... But I'm just saying that people like that hardly qualify as like THE Enemy. It doesn't really fit this discussion but I suppose I was trying to make a point about there being shades of grey.

Anyway.. I am NOT trying to say that there is no sexism, abuse, exploitation etc in the industry. I just think that the other side needs to be put forward.

Also, I have met many male prostitutes and some of them even work for women (though I admit this is a tiny minority).

The workers I have seen hit the worst are always the ones who have to hide it. They will put up with so much abuse because they can't risk being "outed" and because their confidence is so low. Also police and others who look down on hookers are not likely to help.

I don't support sex-industry lobby groups generally (though on some issues yes). But I think that the stigma facing sex-workers is a MUCH BIGGER problem for most workers than any ideas about "happy whores".

Also, I definately agree that people need options. BUT I would personally prefer to do sex-work than be a councellor or a school teacher (sorry to pick on them - they are just two occupations that I would not like personally).

I guess what I was trying to say with the councelling thing.. Is that if say you had to do a 2 year degree in sex-therapy or an apprenticeship, and if there were other well paying jobs availiable when you need them... Then I think that there would still be some people who chose to do sex work. Like Saul for example and many other workers I know.

While I'm going on about this I just thought I might bring up a bit about why clients see sex-workers.

Some are nasty, sadistic or like to play phychological games (we call that "mind-fucks"). But these really are the minority (from my own experience I'd say %5 to %10). Also, the people they tend to pick on are ALWAYS those who are either young, new to the industry and most importantly of all unconfident or down-trodden. In my experience the best way to deal with them is collectively by warning and supporting other workers; and individually by being self-confident and empowered. This is a lot of the reason why I think stigma is so damaging to workers. It basically makes them easy prey to these types of people.

There are also a lot of people who are basically out "partying" with their mates. These people are generally alright. They do see workers as human. But these are the ones that can sometimes believe the "happy whore" myth a little too much. Though most are show off and become quite reasonable once they are in a room out of sight of their mates. This group probably constitutes about half the clients.

There are some who just plain like sex. These are usually no problem. They can fall in to the "happy whore" thing, but mostly they realise that you are a professional who is providing a service. They understand that it is a professional relationship.

Of the other %50 or so..
Many of these are lonely. This is where the councelling thing comes in. Others are victims of abuse or have various sexual problems which they cannot deal with in a normal relationship. These people are almost always fully aware that you are just working. They often go out of their way to make sure they are not crossing any boundaries with you. These are the people who I think really do NEED some kind of sex-therapy.

About the actual work...
You may talk to clients, joke, party, whatever. Some are quite fun. But the actual sex itself is usually almost clinical. The client does not have the right to rape or abuse you and the services provided in most brothels are very clearly set out. A worker does not have to see any particular client or do anything they are not comfortable with. Infact it is often not encouraged to see someone you dont like or do something you dont like because the client usually pick up the vibe and has a bad time. The labour shortage also means that these rights are real, because like Citao said, most agencies have trouble finding enough workers. Also bad stories get around quik and workers do warn each other off bad agencies.

Thanks for explaining that a bit more. With the sex therapy stuff, I think the need for sex conselling would be reduced by getting rid of capitalism because our relationships wouldn't be twisted out of shape by economic necessity or sexual oppression/sexism. This, I suspect, would make us healthier sexual beings.

Perhaps there will be a need for some to have help from "sexperts" or whatever you want to call them (not that people would necessarily have one role and purpose in a worker run society). But if so it would no longer be prostitution. Prostitution is defined by the the act of selling sex for money. Counselling may come into it for a lot of sex workers but you don't have to counsel clients to be a prostitute. Thumbs up to you if you've helped out customers with their issues, but it just shows how messed up people are under capitalism that they need this kind of counselling.

It may no be contemporary, but if you feel like a good read Engel's The Origins of the Family gives an excellent explanation of capitalism and the institution of marriage which I think is very relevant to the things we've been talking about.

I have read it and it's a great book. I have also heard your arguments before (I am guessing which group your in after your last couple of posts). It's just that I am not convinced of the qualitative difference (which I've already raved on about enough). Anyway seems like we are coming closer to agreement with some stuff. You should cover Scarlett Alliance stuff more. As I said before they have done some really good work with illegal migrant worker issues which they have had trouble raising.

I'm writing as an individual but between you and me I'm a member of Socialist Alternative. Cheers Bella, HWW and others for a good old discussion.

My Goodness!! here is my two bobs worth! I am a sex worker, a sex worker activist, a social worker, a single mother, a union activist, a feminist, and a HUMAN BEING!

The stuff about having a high representation of abused women in the indusry could and should be flipped over: Sex work is one of the few work places where we can be ouserves. The fact that we can choose our own hours, our own work places and our own conditions, the fact that we can walk out of one workplace and into another, the fact the bosses need us more than we need them, allows those of us who may find it difficult for what ever reason (menatl health issues, drug use issues, study, parenting etc) to go to work. If other workplaces could be more flexable and understanding to lifestyle issues then maybe this over representation would change. It is other 'straight' workplaces we should be giving the hard time, not the sex industry.

The fact that we know we can work privately, relatively easily, we can go from one workplace to another, we are capable of making a lot of money for ourselves and our bosses and if we leave a workplace we can take our clientelle with us gives us more power than the 'average workplace'

Clents are not madmen. madmen are madmen! they may prey on sex workers more than other groups of society becuase we are underprotected by the police, we are are too stigmatised by the rest of the community to do anything about it, we risk loosing our children if we admit to being a sex worker etc.

Although some of you people are saying that you are on our side, you are contributung to the stigma that we face. Every post i read on this forum by non sex workers is pointing to negative stuff in the industry. Cant you see that you are contributing to it. Would i go and see you if you were a counsellor, policeman, doctor for help, when you are going to put down who i am and what i am about?

Do you not wonder about the fact that all the sex workers are saying we are happy, and all the non-sexworkers are saying no your not, or maybe you are but no one else is?

Are you not hearing our voices? You are the ones that make me feel opressed, not my clients, and not my boss, who i have more power over than he does over me. Talk to us, you will hear the same things over and over again. All the negative stuff can be fixed with some common sense, law reform, and community support!

We are the sex workers!! Would you listen to the bosses of supermarkets talk about workers experiences? no, So why should sex workers listen to academics talk about our experiences!!

And another thing Sex workers in Australia have better sexual health then the general community, so please dont try to throw that in our faces!

And ofcourse not every sex worker in the world is happy, or us lucky as we are in Australia, due largely to the laws, and stigma and its effects, but when they come to Australia for better working conditions, we call them sex slaves, and victims and send them home. We call its rescue, they call it a raid. Are they going to come to the police if they are abused? no. Are they going to disclose there circumstances to you or anyone else. NO because they are scared of being deported!!!!

"We are the sex workers!! Would you listen to the bosses of supermarkets talk about workers experiences? no, So why should sex workers listen to academics talk about our experiences!!"

That's exactly it!

What's really scary is that you read American left sites and people actually argue for sex-work to be banned... And use Australia as an example of how legalising prostitution supposedly increases violence against sex-workers and children (!!!). It's very frustrating. Hope Australia never goes that way.

You can’t be a counselor or a sex-therapist if you don’t know how to be a professional counselor and have professional training. You maybe a nice person and a good lover, but you won’t know enough about different types of people and what could go wrong with them to practice as a “sex” therapists. Sex-therapists do not have sex with their clients.

I noticed that many people in the sex industry are very dysfunctional and have not done the therapeutic work it takes to heal themselves. If the sex-industry would be more positive towards the rest of society, that includes older people, married women, less attractive people, and would show more humanity instead of degrading others maybe society would be more open to their issues.

The sex industry is equally to blame for not being accepted as the right wing hypocrites who want to prohibit it and use sex-workers in secret. As long as people are looking down on each other we will get nowhere in the discussion.

Also, do sex-workers ever consider the effect on the family? Do they ask any questions whether the spouse knows what is going on and if there is enough money to pay for the service and not deprive the family of what it needs? Someone who would really be a therapist would get the family together and resolve the issues.

Also, what do you think about ranking and evaluating women in review boards, which are terribly subjective at times, false, and sometimes misleading or even a lie? I guess, quality control is an issue but these review boards have destroyed lives sometimes and nobody cared. The moderators of these boards have a huge responsibility to keep the discussion balanced, focused, and fair. The more lives are being destroyed the more hatred they will encounter in the future. Some men who post on these boards are full of themselves in the way they seem to hate women, especially their wives. I could never write anything like that about my partner on a public board. I love him too much. I would rather divorce than being so indiscrete and writing negative things about my partner on a review board. That people do that clearly shows how dysfunctional they are.

Talking about dysfunction, any trained therapists would never engage in something that dysfunctional as letting themselves be rated in an escort review board. They only reason they do it is for the advertising purpose. Also the review-board are pushing and pressuring women to fit into a mold. It is not just meant to get rid of the up-sellers and drug addicted girls. It is meant to push women to compete with each other for ever more sexual favors.

All human beings need respect, sex workers as much as married women, older men and all the “ugly people they don’t care but joke about.

I would want people to develop empathy and compassion for one another eventually. We have long ways to go and the road is very rough for all that “love and light” which is advertised in the ads.

(me being naive and still believing in LOVE)

"You can’t be a counselor or a sex-therapist if you don’t know how to be a professional counselor and have professional training."

Firstly, I am saying that this is what it could develope into, and also that prostitutes do actually function as this a lot of the time. Many people who have been victims of abuse or have various dis-functions see prostitutes to deal with these issues.

Professional training would add greatly to the effectiveness of this. But experience also counts for a lot.

"I noticed that many people in the sex industry are very dysfunctional and have not done the therapeutic work it takes to heal themselves."

When did you notice this? What involvement have you had in the industry that allows you to make such a judgemental comment?

"If the sex-industry would be more positive towards the rest of society, that includes older people, married women, less attractive people..."

Clearly you've never set foot in a brothel. There are people of all kinds of looks and ages and married women who work in brothels.

"As long as people are looking down on each other we will get nowhere in the discussion."

Who is looking down on you?

"Also, do sex-workers ever consider the effect on the family? Do they ask any questions whether the spouse knows what is going on and if there is enough money to pay for the service and not deprive the family of what it needs? Someone who would really be a therapist would get the family together and resolve the issues."

It has no negative effect on the family. We are not the same as gambling... People don't spend their life savings on prostitutes. Allowing people to work out their sexual issues has got to be good for their partner. Also I am just not a big fan of the nuclear family and I don't think that the fact that such a restricted social arrangement rarely works out on prostitutes.

Monogamy has always existed for women but not men. You can't blame that on women... You can only encourage them to demand the same rights and respect as their partners.

I have no idea what these "review boards" you refer to are or what they have to do with sex-work. I certainly would not allow myself to be ranked in one of them, not just because it sounds insulting, but also because it would violate my privacy. Judgeing by the fact that I have never heard of them in the industry before I suspect that they are not exactly popular with most workers.

“ugly people they don’t care but joke about"
Do you really think that sex-workers sit around and joke about "ugly" people? Few of us fit the Barbie Doll mold and we don't expect others to either. Clients pick people based on very personal preferences to do with personality as well as their personal taste in appearance - mostly just on who makes them feel comfortable or seems like a fun person. Sex-workers are the LAST people who would ever judge someone on appearance.

"me being naive and still believing in LOVE"

Sex isn't always about love - sometimes it's just about physical pleasure. I have relationships, including long-term ones. All of them know what I do for a living. Of course I believe in love. All kinds of love. I just don't think that it can always be fit into the romance/marriage/nuclear family mold.

I don't believe in objective physical beauty. It is an entirely subjective thing; cultural, personal and emmotional.

Maybe you ought to think about why you keep refering to "less attractive", "ugly" etc people? I think you have fallen for the beauty myth propaganda.

I have never met anyone who did not have a beautifull smile. Have you?

Hey,

I have just read through the posts and congratulations for such a wonderful discussion.

I'm an old whore, (of course i have the right to own that term and participate in a group of sex workers who have taken back the use of the word to wear proudly - not all sex workers will appreciate the term - and i respect their choice) i have been knocking around with socialists for a long time and even those that have supported our work for decriminalisation, marching alongside us at mayday rallies, International womens Day, Reclaim the night, Pride and anywhere else we can get our banner/float/entourage in - there is always this idea that in the ideal world 'prostitution' (we call sex work - and so will you if you respect us) would not exist.

Now, being an old whore, i know lots of other whores (in fact i hang out with a lot of whores either at work or at play) and we have debated and discussed this 'what if' 'til our glasses are empty.

There are many of us that believe there is space to accept that some of us just like it!

We like putting on crazy wigs, way silly big chunky heels, little red dresses that we wouldn't be seen on our bodies outside of work, we like making up stories about who we are and where we have been and we like playing a fantasy role for some 40 year man with a pocket full of cash we would never meet outside of work. (And no Sheila i am not dissociating or under the spell of false conciousness - in fact i think your distortion of these theories is crap) We like experimenting with our sexuality and stretching those boundaries, reflecting on our experiences and experiencing sexually with a person we don't love or even know.

In fact, there are times i am really turned on when someone comes up with a fantasy that i have never thought of. I guess some people see fantasies as deviant and some people see them as a healthy expression of sexuality.

I am not alone- in fact i think there would be a whole lot of us still doing sex work regardless of other choices. In fact i have many times gone off and done the straight work thing only to find i miss the great girls room debates, i miss the wonderful people who work as sex workers and i miss the clients!!

So - I am ready for a new movement -within the sex worker rights movement - where those of us who believe we would want to hock our boxes (or butts) regardless - will challenge the pervasive anti-sex and anti-sex work sentiments of academia & society.

debby doesn't do it for free

Well, I reject the idea that prostitution exists purely because of capitalism. The ancient Vestal 'Virgins' practiced sacred prostitution not for money, but because it was considered holy. The connection between man and woman is sacred and should never be seen as being dirty or wrong.

"These groups work at the coal face of the sex industry to improve the conditions sex workers and give them a sense of their own worth and strength"

One would have thought that a sex worker would know their own worth, everytime they say "that will be $150 thanks".

And clearly the opening paragraph doesn't understand the principle of capitalism, where there is an exchange of worth for worth, agreed to by both parties. Every sale be it for goods or services is an agreement, every agreement ratifies then the virtue and integrity of capitalism.

I understand many of the comments made and that the general consences seems to be that we all hate our job. Although I am only 18 and been having sex for money for only a few months. I must say that most of the time I love it. The guys are more nervous, they are often look down at me in normal everyday life. Yet as their object of affection I am their queen.

I love the sex and if I not like a certain type I prefer not to take on the job. To me it is the same as going to a nightclub yet you get paid and everything is paid for you. There is no way I can make near $10000 pw in any other job, as I am not gifted in another particular field. Apart from being young and pretty. I can stop when I wish and so far have 500K in property and select clients have given me cars and gold, etc. I have been in a modelling agency yet I rarely get work and some of the guys their just wish to sleep with you for free anyway. Especially the owners of the agencies think it is their right to do with you as they please and give you nothing.

At 12-13yo I got many teenage cataloge jobs in the underwear section. I lost my virginity to a director at the agency, when he asked the photographer to leave. He said it was my duty to do as he wants then he ripped off my underwear and we had sex. He did this whenever I could not get one of my parents to come to any of the shoots. He gave me HIV that I have kept secret.

Of course I cannot work in a brothel now, yet did as a 15yo with fake ID but do not need too. As with about 200 regular clients I am called all the time. I try to wear protection with these men but many do not wish and I am not going to say that I have a problem. To me they know what I do, and they should have me at their own risk. From the 200 I have regular sex with only about 5 wish to wear protection.

The issues into why we all do is mostly monetary yet you are treated like a queen also. Ultimately I went from modelling work to sex work as I make more money and get treated better. I know many model friends are asked for special free favours to get little jobs. Over time they see what I do is far better financially and emotionally- if we can pick and choose those who respect us. Then we respect them. I am sorry I cannot tell them of me catching HIV from a director in the model agency. But then I will lose my clients and my money. I am only 18 yet have money and property worth near 1 million. In a few years I can stop and live off the money that the industry provided for me and MumDad. Plus I love my work and love sex. And what is wrong with that.

Except it sounds like you have made it all up.

In fact I suspect your some 40+ nerd / troll sitting in his study fantasising about porking under age kiddies.

As an active sex worker and male, and supporter of personal sexual liberations and free-thinking, I tend to see the attitude towards and within the sex worker industry as less an issue relating to commodity and more an issue relating to public and personal beliefs about sex. To make a gratuitous pun that on further inspection may reveal itself to be otherwise: sex is the root of all evils. Religious/psychological based problems are the cause of misappropriated attitudes towards sex work under the guile of struggles with "wholesomeness and virtue", fundamentally the moralistic class system of sinners/saviors works in a currency that has little to do with, to borrow a Douglas Adams line, the "little pieces of green paper" and more to do with the teething humanity experiences with the growth of civilisation.

I do not see sex work as a simple transaction, I see it as ...

A comment towards polygamy, a social moor to which someone may be stuck in, a body image issue, an authoritarian inbalance, a case of mortality, a patriachal dogma, a personal behavioural stigma, a confusion, or a primal instinct towards dominance.

Money means little to me, I don't care if I have it or don't, unfortunately at the end of the day, all capitalist mouthing off about bills and daily exchanges in goods and services is saying "Gee, ultimately we've set up the rule that tombstones are expensive" - that in the long run, as a morbid means to an end. So, sex being a primary function of creation (unless clinically disputed by fantasies of utopian environments) is the very "positive" to life's "negative" (if you see what I'm saying), part of the wiring that enforces the bulk of us to find the energy to deal with life.

A wonderful Miller quote to end:

“That she would go with me, and take money for it, I knew – but that doesn’t make a woman a whore” – Henry Miller “Quiet Days in Clichy”.

and followed by a D.H Lawrence quote ...

“Most wives sold themselves in the past, and plenty of harlots gave themselves, when they felt like it, for nothing” – Pornography and Obscenity. D.H Lawrence

The Vestal virgins were virgins, Steaming. You're thinking of Babylon - (Cf. Herodotus, Book I, para 199)